A note on Bonk, the consumption time allows you to escape mid-battle and the duration pretty much guarantees an escape

Hi I am running a poll to gather opinions on which weapons should be fixed if I could have some of your time to fill out which weapons subtract from a highlander experience it would be greatly appreciated

http://kwiksurveys.com/app/showpoll.asp?qid=164684&sid=qdn4r4wyvdtr8dx164684&new=True

Thank god you children weren't around for gotfrag. I don't exactly feel it necessary to write an elaborate and educated response to people I don't recognize from 6s because 99% of the time they are ugc trash that crawled out of lobbies. How many of you actually played when pyros could not airblast? Or were at all good enough at the game then to understand the implications of it being added?

Because you're trying to use it to sound important and like you are the Sun-tzu of game balance when you're far from it. There's no yomi here because it is well within the possibility to react to rocket fire and the airblast hitbox size and duration make it more spammable than any "yomi" maneuver you could possibly be referencing. You're not reading an FADC backdash and doing a dash forward SPD here.

Oh boo hoo the enemy isn't in range, you're still playing an objective based game you know that? As far as "range" goes as well, the only classes in this game that can really function at "long" range are sniper and demoman since rockets are so slow and every other class lacks the ability to do significant damage past 600 units or so unless it's an ambassador headshot or some other specific condition. You can't be very good at highlander if your primary concerns about the pyro are "I have to bait people on the flank to get garbage frags" when the class pretty much solely controls elevated areas with the brainless strength of the airblast. Flaregun full crits /do/ matter because it's 90 damage at every range so long as you're on fire and sure if you're airblasted it doesn't particularly matter, but this is /probably/ due to the fact that the airblast completely immobilizes (read as: you don't have to aim ever) all but one class and even then they have one double jump which 90% of the time will not get them out of airblast range again.

Merry christmas, I look forward to your David Sirlin-esque essay about how the degreaser meta-game is simply a manifestation of "playing to win" and soldiers simply have to deal with mini-crit reflects.

So that's a "yes", then

Not sure if this has been brought up before in this thread, but the thing with the degreaser is that pyro's burst damage comes from his secondaries and axtinguisher. If a pyro wants to be remotely capable of fighting a player at a high skill level, they need to get as much damage out as possible as quickly as possible. The small buff to other flamethrowers is irrelevant compared to the damage output the degreaser allows.

Holy batman strawman everywhere. Don't even know where to begin.

"That isn't yomi" is no true Scotsman if I've ever seen it. If you want to keep being a pedant then whatever I'll call it Spoon's layering since such a meta does exist whether you call it yomi or not x)

Also, did you really make the implication that pyro has midrange combat or was that just aimless rambling?

flamethrower damage is a cone, which means it does much less at the tip (which is under 400 HU)

and beyond that, you have nothing but reflects (which rely on people feeding you projectiles) and 30 damage flare guns (splashless projectiles) + afterburn

ignoring demo and sniper, scouts heavies and mini-sentries all wreck you hard before you can get into range and even the spy can pistol you down quite a bit before you can get to him, ignoring spycicle and dr and ambassador (also i heard ugc just unbanned enforcer?)

it is true that pyros can deny jumpers from high ground

until you kill the pyro because he can do jack shit from range

also it seems like you're talking about hypothetical god-pyros that can sight-reflect everything and not many of those play highlander

Pyro's only recourse if he cannot close distance and use airblast to control your movement is the 90 damage crit flare. This assumes he can hit you at least twice before you either kill him or get behind cover. Furthermore, he only has 1 shot per 2 seconds, as opposed to Soldier's Rockets which are at .8 seconds, or Demo's Pipes and Sticky Bombs which are both at .6 seconds per shot. Flare Gun is nowhere near top dog in the midrange+ argument - by the time it starts being more reliable damage than Rockets/Pipes/Stickies again, Sniper is popping up on the graph.

ANYHOW, enough arguing about Pyro for now, I think we agree he needs some tweaking still, on to other things.

Two things I'd like to mention are the Disciplinary Action's massive range - the wiki states it at being 70% larger than other melee weapons. That's a larger range than Demoman swords! Soldier is able to hit enemies behind him with the whip, and that's something that needs fixing.

The other happens to be visual bugs involving the Huntsman. The wiki states that cancelling your shot or going for a swim both removes the flame particle effect from ignited arrows, but apparently does not change said arrow's ability to light a target on fire.

Let me state some opinions that I feel are difficult to reasonably disagree with.

The Pyro is the most range limited class in the game. Regardless of whether you consider air blast and flamethrower range (and these two ranges are different, by the way, something that detractors don't seem to be aware of) to be "close quarters" it is still the shortest effective range compared to all other classes, so its "close enough".

The Pyro is an inferior class for combat. Axtinguisher isn't reliable because its a melee, and even if it was reliable the other combat classes can do as much damage or more, faster, and through more reliable means. Reflects aren't reliable, at least not those that are up close, because it requires the pyro to predict when it happens. Reflects are a reactionary thing, which means returning them will never be as reliable as sending them. If you want to argue this, show me how many reflects you get when the Soldier decides simply not to fire. The flamethrower has a lot of good aspects going for it but "range" and "damage" are not among them, it will still lose out in the damage race against the other combat classes, and is still the most limited primary in the game range-wise. When it comes to secondaries, while degreaser switch speed certainly helps at the end of the day you're using the most common stock secondary in the game or the flare gun which again can't compete with other combat classes in terms of damage. No matter how easy it is to land a flare at close range its still 90 damage every two seconds.

When you talk about fighting a pyro and how "easily" he beats you, you're placing yourself in the same category that I consider pub players who complain about the pyro, that is, you're not skilled enough with the class of your choice to defeat them. An equally skilled player using another combat class is more versatile and is capable of doing more damage in a shorter amount of time, giving them the advantage. Your inability to exercise this advantage is your fault, not a reflection of game balance.

Also a note on degreaser balance while Numbers has me dragged over here, might as well get myself into some more trouble. The reason the degreaser is superior to stock is because the degreaser is too much like stock; most people believe the reverse to be the case. The damage of the stock flamethrower isn't fantastic but it would be more than enough to get by if the stock flamethrower was the preferred choice for a support-style pyro. The reason it isn't is because degreaser can do this style just as well, and maintain its combat style advantage.

Why is this? The problem is air blast. While the versatility of air blast has made it ubiquitous to the pyro it is this same versatility that makes it difficult to balance around. It performs, in one right click, a very powerful effect for both combat and support. Reflecting projectiles away from your teammates and denying ubers are what make the pyro a great support class, while denying enemy movement and reflects help the pyro compensate for his combat deficiencies. If you try to remove the supportive qualities of degreaser to make it level with the stock flamethrower you gimp its combat prowess.

Air blast is even tied to the quickswitch of degreaser in ways that people rarely seem to think about. When you air blast with the degreaser, you are able to swiftly switch to your secondary and pop a shot off, then switch again just as the air blast cool down ends, allowing you to use flames or air blast again (in many situations its even difficult for soldiers to punish you for doing so, as you're able to reflect, pop a shot off, then reflect again before his next rocket provided there's a reasonable amount of distance between you and him). When you air blast with the stock flamethrower, you are not allowed to use flames until the air blast cools down, and the switch is not fast enough to "safely" add a secondary shot in. Because the air blast is the pyro's shield, its usually best not to switch, in which case the air blast cool down is just dead time that you're doing no damage whatsoever. So even in this subtle example the degreaser can make use of this otherwise dead time and contribute extra damage.

The state of flamethrower balance basically comes down to this. Quick switch and air blast are complex matters and +10% damage is too simple a solution.

pyro is the best defensive class in the game, it shouldn't have the same damage potential as the others unless your goal in "balancing" is to make all classes the same

If that response was toward me, I actually don't have a problem with where the pyro is, I am just arguing some of the points made here about him being too powerful. I think he's a good mix of combat and support and thats what makes him good.

You sir have put to words what I've wanted to much more eloquently than I ever could hope to. Kudos.

Besides my previous post about the Disciplinary Action needing a range fix and Huntsman needing a visual effects fix, could we also discuss the Short Circuit?

Looking at the Google Doc we have so far, I feel the Short Circuit is similar to the Quick-Fix/Vaccinator in that when compared to other options (read: the Wrangler) it's simply so situational and weak there's no reason to use it. It's not a bad weapon, and it's a pretty good concept actually, but there is no reason to even consider it when you can have the Wrangler block 66% of all incoming damage sources and give you essentially endless range, and aim-assisted targeting. Why even bother trying to delete a few projectiles from existence when you can sponge them and repair once it's safe?

I'd think that the short circuit would be convenient once the wrangler's fixed. Being able to basically click any incoming projectiles out of existence is really great, but it isn't wrangler-great.

Yeah I'm totally fine where pyro is right now. The minicrits on reflect are a bit superfluous and, while I don't think it makes much of a difference anyway, adding .05 seconds to the airblast cooldown to make it equal to soldier's firing rate would be nice. Airblast and degreaser are just at a point where they are both defensive and offensive tools, and a nerf will severely hamper both of pyro's jobs.

As for Short Circuit, I always felt the metal cost was way too high and the firing rate way too slow to justify its use. 35 ammo is more than the widowmaker requires, and the firing interval is so low that you can't really protect your sentry or team from spam, not to mention that its use will hamper your ability to build, upgrade, or repair buildings by chewing on metal.

Pyro can't handle my yomi http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZVoaOkV2IQ

Honestly it was just the worst designed class in the game from the get-go. It's still relegated to utility duty right now, but there are people who have issues with that.
I think it's fine like that. Even ignoring that TF2 wasn't designed to be competitive from the start (Valve did acknowledge it once in like 2009/2010), it's still fun in pubs to run Phlog on poorly designed maps or do Backburner glitching behind Steel A.

I agree on the weapons part, though I think messing with the base things may just make pyro more of an annoyance, if for no other reason then because people would need to relearn things again.

short circuit is legit for pushing the cart, that's what dave+ did on ts and it worked really well, also fucks kritz stickies on koth maps

I've pissed a lot of people off in tf2mix by playing pyro. Here's how I would change the pyro to make him viable in 6v6.

PYRO 2.0
--------
slot 1: flamethrowers
slot 2: Shotguns
slot 3: flareguns.
slot 4: melee.

Health: 150
Speed: 107% (same as the medic)

-Flare gun and detonator are now combined.
-Detonator/flaregun jumping now make you go a little further and higher.
-New boston basher style weapon for the pyro. Ignites people instead of making them bleed. This can be used to build uber.

MY REASONING BEHIND THESE DRASTIC CHANGES:

1) Pyros currently get to decide between the shotgun, the flaregun, the reserve shooter, and the detonator. I feel like each of these covers one of the classes weaknesses, but you can only choose one of them so you're always left really weak in some other aspect. For example, Pippy the Pyro chooses the shotgun. He's now good at cleaning up and has midrange combat capabilities but he lacks mobility because he didnt choose the detonator.

2) The pyro in highlander is kinda like the passive scout in 6v6 because he helps defend the combo from roamers, spies, and scouts with balls. If pyro was buffed then teams could switch out a scout for a pyro.

3) The pyro should always be able to have a shotgun equipped so that scouts can't completely wreck pyros like they can right now. A pyro with a shotgun has a good chance at winning a 1v1 with a scout.

4) Pyros should always be able to have the flaregun/detonator combo thing equipped so that they can do burst damage, and get those lucky long range across the map crit flares. Pyros should always be able to detonator jump because they're going to need it to be effective in a lot of 6v6 situations and maps.

While it may be useful there, a Wrangled Mini is likely 10x better. Especially since the main cart pushers will usually be Scout, Engineer and Sniper when the combo is away.

I'm mainly thinking of the defensive level 3 though. Wrangler is unarguably superior because not only can you sponge the damage without losing the sentry, but you can fire back - no damage drop off and aim assist included.

I don't think the goal is to make Pyro a full-time possibility in 6v6. The goal is to try and have the majority of weapons be balanced so that mainly player preference and strategy dictate what's used. Not simply because something is viewed as either so good it's necessary (Wrangler and Vitasaw) or straight up broken (Pomson and Enforcer).

Anyhow, concerning your points:

1) Detonator jumps - Yes please, increasing jump height/distance is welcome in my book.

2) Flare Gun/Detonator combination - No. You trade off the reliable high-damage crit flares to gain the Detonator's mobility. The Detonator is good as-is besides my gripes about increasing the jump distance.

3) Passive Scout is more about covering your Demo's back than your combo's back. Beyond that, you clean up what your other Scout and Roamer initiates.

4) A good Scout is the second worse thing a Pyro can face in a 1v1 (only beat out by a really good Soldier). Shotgun is no more a guarantee than Flare. Honestly, if I can stall the little bugger for a moment to burn him, a 90 damage Flare will work just as well if not better.

5) Shotgun on Pyro is for meting out damage on targets beyond your primary's range. You're trading pin-pointed long-range burst damage for reliable mid-range meat shots.

And here's the big one: You're not giving any of the nine classes an extra weapon slot. This is something that will never happen, let alone for fewer than all nine classes.

Remember, while we agree that Pyro might need a minor tweak yet to get him "perfect," we're not trying to form-fit him into 6v6. We're trying to balance and fix all class' weapons in general.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yErd0-dLCz4

Were either of those kills intentional? No. You decide!

Why is that in this game? Nobody knows. You decide!

It seems like this thread has devolved into a pyro debate; mostly composed of people who play pyro....

Honestly, I only became involved because I kept seeing extreme misconceptions on the class regarding how strong it is. If this is going to be shown to Valve, I want to at least cover the other side

Those of us who are defending pyro really just agree that the class is fine where it is, and buffs/nerfs would have to be slight otherwise you end up disbalancing the class

maybe i'm missing the point here but how are people who don't play pyro supposed to talk about the pyro

I agree that Wrangler + wrenches are the only way to go when defending, but I'm not so sure about the first part. While Wrangled Mini-Sentries are bullshit, the cart's path for most PL maps is at least 80% on the low ground where sightlines are limited, so it's not AS good, I feel like you have to go somewhere else to build an ideal Wrangling Mini-Sentry and often stay there to see targets, which diverts your attention, where you can just drop them in front of the cart and SC away with the infinite cart metal.

EIther way, I think the Short Circuit doesn't need a buff, it's a situational unlock, but it definitely has use, if the extent of its worth is debatable. Buff Engie Pistol.

and honestly do you really want the engineer constantly deleting stickies to be a thing

#173:
I think they mean "pyro mains/specialists" instead of "people who are good at pyro or play them enough"

I really think the enforcer just needs to be fixed. It can 2 shot low health classes without a head shot and the slower firing speed and less damage when disguised do not weigh out the 20% more damage.
Also the degreaser is definitely the best flame thrower and maybe should have some more noticeable downsides.
Finally the soda popper seems to always have the mini crits ready. It is not fun to play a scout when he has that much of an advantage.

dont shoot the rocket?

I think a good change that could be made to the Short Circuit, would be to make it a constant-fire weapon like the flamer, but with a heavy drain rate. This could reward the ones who are better with timing by making it use less (maybe 20-25 metal in a burst?) and make it more appealing to the less practised players by allowing them to get more of a guarantee that it will actually clean up projectiles (at the cost of the majority of their metal)

Soldiers and demos can get lucky kills too.

I accidentally kill people all the time. The trick is to make it look like it was on purpose.

I'm all for reworking airblast but the idea of airblast is awesome. Good pyros (which I am not) aim reflects like that on purpose. This is the same problem everyone has with Sniper. Give the player some respect, and you'll die a lot less.