Limiting medic to 1 and the rest of the classes to two seems to be the no brainer for matchmaking imo

im like the black rose nife a lot becuse its looks cool and cool stiles to it and it can be pink or black and thats prety cool and i think that spys should use it

stabby you seem like a chill guy but what the fuck were you thinking do u realize how many pubbers brains you just washed
we need youtubers/streamers who actually know something about the game instead of spy/pyro/engie mains acting like morons and saying shit like "6s meta stale hl is fun 6s is for tryhards 6s not use all classes :'("

Dude, I'm gonna tweet random shit that floats through my head, and I really don't think that's going to burn the world down. Why concern myself with anyone foolish enough to take it as gospel instead of actually thinking?

And thanks, I'm sure you're a chill fella, too :)

Why does everyone want to put class limits on mm? On serious matches, you always see something different being played and it spices up the game compared to the meta.

anyone good at the game can just play their main class (or really any normal 6's class that isn't medic), ignore team coordination, and kill an entire mm team 1v6

if kids want to blame that on class limits rather than their own skill limitations, then they won't get out of their pubber rut.

Class balance in TF2 from valve could be really good but I really hope they don't balance every class to be run full time because the only way to do that properly would be to change the core mechanics of some classes which won't make people who main them happy in any case.

They have stated previously that they do not believe every class should be equal. They understand the specialist roles of some classes and relish that rather than shy away from it iirc. Besides which, when we talk about "running every class full time" we're only talking in the context of 5cp. In A/D or Payload, many of these classes can be run full-time as part of the best composition. It's a bit strange that even the pubbers have framed their objections around the concept of permanently playing 5cp.

"The only reason scout/solly/demo/med is run is narrow mindedness"
Holy fucking shit

Fucking idiot on top, intelligent stabby fans bellow.

http://i.imgur.com/Jj5fehY.png

"mlg360skrub"

I personally think that the 6s set up is just fun every time. IMO what wouldn't be fun is engineers, heavies, snipers, pyros being run all the time. I think it's the nature of the 6s classes that keep them fun. I also notice that most of the people who call 6v6 stale are HL players. When you don't pay close attention to a scene, on the outside it will seem stale (one of the arguments would be that it's always the same set up).

I haven't gotten into a league yet (maybe that makes my opinions shit) but just watching 6s matches from ages ago and now, comparing the different scenes and reading material, I think it's changed quite a lot.

guys lets do a kappa chain

Kappa

Theory crafted strats like 6 demos have counters, like bonk scouts or vaccinator medics. But 6 demos is only useful if you're ahead and want to slow down the game which makes it's usage predictable, so choosing the right counter is not random.

That's what a strong metagame is all about. Lots of options and strategic choices. It only becomes a problem when a single lineup is the best in all instances. There is no doubt the MM game will be different to existing competitive formats, and introducing arbitrary limits will just repeat the same alienating patterns that reduce participation.

The product will work best with a minimum of restrictions or explanations being required, you just play tf2. The importance of mechanical skill in the game means individuals will always be able to make a difference.

tbh it seems like roughly the current cookie cutter is becoming the MM meta anyway +/- a heavy

too many medics means you can't do damage and considering scout is OP as fuck against publords too many demos is another L for the scoreboard

You *can* break the game if you want, but it really seems that we were mostly limiting classes for the sake of keeping preventing people from gaying up pugs rather than actually making the game work

the fact I've seen pyros in all my matches and have yet to die to one kinda speaks to the effect of trying to fight the 6s lineup

Okay, so far we've established that:

• there's a reason for the class composition
  
• stabby didn't intend for this kind of backlash
  
• pubber/trader mains wouldn't understand why 6v6 is set up the way it is because they play a different game than we do. Not that it's a bad thing, but the fact that they're (figuratively) using a granary stalemate situation to judge the entirety of 6v6 is quite silly

I also agree with the number of people that say that mm should have class limits at 2 (the only exception being 1 medic). Or at the very least to start, valve should put it at 3 so mm doesn't become known as "competitive pootis rush 2016" with 4-6 of just one class slowly marching their way from a forward spawn all the way to last

ur asking to full time spy in 6s tell me which is worse

CS has had the same AK M4 and AWP for the past 15 years, it's the most watched esport on twitch. The meta will change, the game will keep itself fresh, we dont need people fucking with classes to do that.

This.

Random thoughts from a really low level player..

Sideshow's post (#149) makes the most sense here because it addresses the reality of MM. With no class limits, MM would meet thousands of angry pubbers intending to wreck havoc in a format that left them out.

I wish everyone could remember that TF2 is played daily by tens of thousands of players and the vast majority of these do not play 6s. I avidly support the desire to establish TF2 as a legitimate e-sport for elite players; I just don't agree with MM being the tool to initiate it.

Honestly, I'd like to throw the dictionary at everyone who uses the word "meta." Or maybe not. Meta means making reference to oneself and indeed, those using it are referring to a minute fraction of the TF2 population.

Leaving out half the classes and most of the maps isn't going to force players to adopt new classes and play styles, because many find the 6s format less exciting to play. It already isn't...the majority of us low level players simply aren't participating because we find it boring. What we were once truly excited for...now, it's just MEH. Again, that's tens of thousands of players rejecting MM, which perhaps was the point all along? Weed out the riff-raff?

I apologize for getting off-topic here. The main thing I wanted to say was this: I agree with much of what Stabby and Dane have said on the topic of MM. I think this discussion can be had without the personal attacks. Gaaaaaaaa, it's like Trickle-Down Trump. I've read so many thoughtful, interesting posts here and kudos to those willing to address these concerns in a respectful manner. Whether or not your message gets heard relies on how you deliver it. Shitty comments about players most of us respect or admire don't help.

I think you're misinterpreting what the majority of people want on here. I don't think anyone logically can say that want matchmaking to force league 6s onto players new to competitive formats. What stabby and Dane are suggesting however is the same thing on the opposite spectrum, forcing off classes through strict class limits. What matchmaking should be is an in between of the two, so that players in lower ranks of matchmaking can play the classes they like with the load outs they like, while more competitive players will rise up the ranks with their more effective class compositions.

Also to describe the casual player bases reaction to matchmaking as "meh" appears to be just wrong. People may be arguing over what format or how they really want to play spy full time or whatever but the general mood in the casual player base is still excitement, just look at how many followers the beta steam group has.

It's almost as if there is a whole community of people who don't like 6v6 and have different opinions on the game. Who knew.

if you don't like 6v6 or play 6v6 maybe you shouldn't try enforcing your opinions on a community that does, or spreading them to your 4000 followers who idolize stabby -ts- LeEpicShpee and would believe anything that he says

This mostly sounds like someone wants to constantly play a lesser class and wants valve's authority behind him to stop people complaining about it, both Dane and stabby.

The practicalities are what will matter to begin with. Bigger teams sizes reduce the effectiveness of skill brackets, increase queue times, and because they're impractical for lan disincentivise valve pushing the esports side.

I entered open because of this kinda, It irks me when I see pubstar types struggle to talk about deeper mechanics, even moreso feeling embarrassed when I can't do it myself
(not directed towards stabby, he knows a fuckton more than I do, but It's evident his showerthought became a bigger topic of discussion)

i remember when u used to post on facepunch like 3 years ago and its really funny to see you say that when you used to be that exact person

which can segue into a fairly good discussion about how the best way to combat anti 6s mentalities is to expose new players to it i guess

This one is a losing battle, I'm afraid. Once enough people on the internet misuse a word, it becomes correct.

Like every language spoken nowadays was created and evolved this way...

This is also bullshit, meta means "beyond" or "after" and is used to descibe something that's an abstraction or derivative of something else that adds to or completes the original thing.

The term metagame has been around for decades

Meanwhile Stark championing the viability of 6s Spy in real time