There's nothing to be gained by making the other classes more viable. Sure, you theoretically *could* figure up a way to make the other 5 classes strong enough to warrant them being run all the time, but the simple fact of the matter is that, that flies in the face of 7+ years of 6v6. At this stage, the game is what it is and radical changes would simply result in something qualitatively different from "6s."
Does Pyro need some kind of a rework for its current state? Yes. Although, in the realm of 6v6 I would say it is primarily a graphics related one (pyro flames make it damn hard to see anything in a way they never did before).
There have been many players who ran pyro in situations other than last defenses, Ma3la, Enigma, Huey, TMP, Satan, and many others. In fact, back in the day, it was fairly normal to bring a pyro to badlands mid (comes out of shithouse/clubhouse) at least once in a longer game.
Heavy also used to be brought out a LOT more than he is now. Hell, Oplaid go heavy was an invite team ;) Heavy used to come out all the time. Dheroes even wrote it into our DNA with "Dumbbrain Go Heavy!" any time we started to lose momentum. Check out an IM Vod from s13, to the open finals from s12 - you will see heavy on a non-last point *at least* once in a match if not for minutes at a time. People simply don't do it anymore because they're too skittish of the ire such a tactic brings, and because if they tried it in scrims they'd likely see the other team RQ. Enigma's heavy on Warmfront mid single-handedly ended that map's multiple season run in ESEA.
Sniper is already quite viable in a 6s setting so long as your sniper is actually good. That's the hard part. If you have a guy like Powah who can just shred people on command, then sniper can be brought out in just about any situation. The trouble is that most of the people who try to main sniper in 6s are bad at it and thus bias their cohorts against sniper altogether.
Spy suffers from a "situational" bias in 6s in that the only time anybody tries to play him is when it's patently obvious that the other team might be using a spy. So players acquire a wealth of experiences of spy plays not working out. Spy succeeds when it's *not* expected. Transition fights, and stop-start advantage pushes, i.e., when teams don't want to force uber due to having large advantage so they push slowly. It's doubly effective because in such situations players don't have time to look around, being focused on the opposition, nor are positions as established and stationary as they are during a last defense. The fact that spy is often a trade class, in that even if you do get a frag you'll die afterwords, is also not that punishing in such transitional situations, as teams often run suicide plays there anyways.
Engineer is a little different in that there are situations where he can be quite useful outside of last - again you *used* to see engineer brought out a lot more often, particularly when teams would push off of their own last, there was a *decent* chance that they would drag their gun out to 2nd in the event that the other team had uber advantage and was likely to push back into second. There is also the shutter door on Gullywash which Mackey used to use fairly regularly to conceal a sentry. Not to mention that using an engee *pushing* last is SUPER annoying and altogether viable.
There's nothing to be gained by making the other classes more viable. Sure, you theoretically *could* figure up a way to make the other 5 classes strong enough to warrant them being run all the time, but the simple fact of the matter is that, that flies in the face of 7+ years of 6v6. At this stage, the game is what it is and radical changes would simply result in something qualitatively different from "6s."
Does Pyro need some kind of a rework for its current state? Yes. Although, in the realm of 6v6 I would say it is primarily a graphics related one (pyro flames make it damn hard to see anything in a way they never did before).
There have been many players who ran pyro in situations other than last defenses, Ma3la, Enigma, Huey, TMP, Satan, and many others. In fact, back in the day, it was fairly normal to bring a pyro to badlands mid (comes out of shithouse/clubhouse) at least once in a longer game.
Heavy also used to be brought out a LOT more than he is now. Hell, Oplaid go heavy was an invite team ;) Heavy used to come out all the time. Dheroes even wrote it into our DNA with "Dumbbrain Go Heavy!" any time we started to lose momentum. Check out an IM Vod from s13, to the open finals from s12 - you will see heavy on a non-last point *at least* once in a match if not for minutes at a time. People simply don't do it anymore because they're too skittish of the ire such a tactic brings, and because if they tried it in scrims they'd likely see the other team RQ. Enigma's heavy on Warmfront mid single-handedly ended that map's multiple season run in ESEA.
Sniper is already quite viable in a 6s setting so long as your sniper is actually good. That's the hard part. If you have a guy like Powah who can just shred people on command, then sniper can be brought out in just about any situation. The trouble is that most of the people who try to main sniper in 6s are bad at it and thus bias their cohorts against sniper altogether.
Spy suffers from a "situational" bias in 6s in that the only time anybody tries to play him is when it's patently obvious that the other team might be using a spy. So players acquire a wealth of experiences of spy plays not working out. Spy succeeds when it's *not* expected. Transition fights, and stop-start advantage pushes, i.e., when teams don't want to force uber due to having large advantage so they push slowly. It's doubly effective because in such situations players don't have time to look around, being focused on the opposition, nor are positions as established and stationary as they are during a last defense. The fact that spy is often a trade class, in that even if you do get a frag you'll die afterwords, is also not that punishing in such transitional situations, as teams often run suicide plays there anyways.
Engineer is a little different in that there are situations where he can be quite useful outside of last - again you *used* to see engineer brought out a lot more often, particularly when teams would push off of their own last, there was a *decent* chance that they would drag their gun out to 2nd in the event that the other team had uber advantage and was likely to push back into second. There is also the shutter door on Gullywash which Mackey used to use fairly regularly to conceal a sentry. Not to mention that using an engee *pushing* last is SUPER annoying and altogether viable.
Hermann_von_Salsa Tomislav's a hitscan which means he cannot focus multiple targets + heavy has the wort movement in game.
that's not what you were arguing. you were arguing that DF is too powerful because it kills too fast to react to if they manage to get straight in your face.
the point that i'm making is that it doesn't matter how good you are at ambushing if you're worthless outside of ambushing.
I should have mentioned flanking as well, but my point still stands. Team cannot take flanks into account 100%, and pyro can also go for suicide bombs. It's not Pyro's ability to flank why DF is the problem, it's that it's too easy to aim because of its hitboxes so it's "reward for skill" really does not come to play then.
I'm not saying that ambushes are useless because teams always check hiding spots. I'm saying that ambushing is a big risk that relies on the other team fucking up.
The far more pressing matter is most fights are not ambushes. You will have to take fights that are not ambushes unless you are baiting the fuck out of your team. That's why people don't run Tomislav Heavy or Spy full time even though they're really, really good at killing people when the other team doesn't know they're there.
Also bombing straight into people with jetpack isn't that great of a strategy, the switch speed is painful and gives the enemy lots of time to stall you in the air (Pyro is super light). Also it's not very fast and doesn't go very far.
Spy needs much more thought out positioning for getting a good one kill, while Pyeo can just do huge amount of damage with just basic knowledge of aiming.
I'd like to note that you're shifting the argument from "it's not fair that something that takes no mechanical skill can kill me before i can react if they ambush me" to "ambushing is way easier on Pyro than Spy."
Cloaking behind and stabbing people who aren't looking at you is not difficult in any sense. Getting into position while invisible is not more difficult than hiding around a corner. Cloaking is just a million times more strong and flexible. There's way more that you can do with it.
The skill part of Spy isn't getting into position, it's knowing when to play Spy and picking the right opportunity to commit. The latter isn't possible for the Pyro to control.
The fact that you can deal huge amount of damage with basic aiming is the reason why airblast and secondaries are irrevelant, especially in ambush scenarios.
I think you're conflating "airblasting isn't good" and "airblasting with the DF isn't good." Airblasting is great. It has a massive hitbox, fucks up their aim, it prevents them from going where they want to do, and reflecting prevents damage to yourself and your team.
I think you're right that you probably won't need to airblast much with the thing if you're in flamethrower range, other than Soldiers jumping into your face and Spies. What I'm concerned about is if a Soldier is straddling the tip of your range and putting out 70 damage rockets into you - if you airblast then they know they're safe enough to fire a free rocket. If you don't airblast or switch weapons, you're not doing anything and will eventually die if you don't leave. And if you do end up airblasting to reflect, you can mitigate the cooldown period of the DF by shooting with your secondary. I think this weakness to mid-ranged spam is really going to put a damper on how good DF is since it's impossible for the DF Pyro to create situations where he can do work, and if the other team doesn't walk into him, ceteris paribus, they will win the fight.
The real point was that the hitboxes are too big, and you don't need to aim directly to so damage with it. I'm not really arguing that Pyro is OP or unstoppable, I think he's stilö a broken class, ans that DF needa little tweaking in order to be a proper skill weapon imo
Rockets and stickies don't need to aim directly to do damage either.
If Pyro isn't overpowered with DF then it should be unbanned.
EDIT:
syphDf requires far less accuracy than any other projectile in the game considering its speed and hitbox. No matter what your experience is if you simply understand the basic concept of projectiles you will hit your shots 90% of the time and that is not ok when it can 2shot light classes.
https://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/8/84/Rocket_launcher.png/250px-Rocket_launcher.png?t=20140603154418
Where are you getting this 90% number from?
[quote=Hermann_von_Salsa] Tomislav's a hitscan which means he cannot focus multiple targets + heavy has the wort movement in game.[/quote]
that's not what you were arguing. you were arguing that DF is too powerful because it kills too fast to react to if they manage to get straight in your face.
the point that i'm making is that it doesn't matter how good you are at ambushing if you're worthless outside of ambushing.
[quote]I should have mentioned flanking as well, but my point still stands. Team cannot take flanks into account 100%, and pyro can also go for suicide bombs. It's not Pyro's ability to flank why DF is the problem, it's that it's too easy to aim because of its hitboxes so it's "reward for skill" really does not come to play then.[/quote]
I'm not saying that ambushes are useless because teams always check hiding spots. I'm saying that ambushing is a big risk that relies on the other team fucking up.
The far more pressing matter is [u]most fights are not ambushes[/u]. You will have to take fights that are not ambushes unless you are baiting the fuck out of your team. That's why people don't run Tomislav Heavy or Spy full time even though they're really, really good at killing people when the other team doesn't know they're there.
Also bombing straight into people with jetpack isn't that great of a strategy, the switch speed is painful and gives the enemy lots of time to stall you in the air (Pyro is super light). Also it's not very fast and doesn't go very far.
[quote]Spy needs much more thought out positioning for getting a good one kill, while Pyeo can just do huge amount of damage with just basic knowledge of aiming.[/quote]
I'd like to note that you're shifting the argument from "it's not fair that something that takes no mechanical skill can kill me before i can react if they ambush me" to "ambushing is way easier on Pyro than Spy."
Cloaking behind and stabbing people who aren't looking at you is not difficult in any sense. Getting into position while invisible is not more difficult than hiding around a corner. Cloaking is just a million times more strong and flexible. There's way more that you can do with it.
The skill part of Spy isn't getting into position, it's knowing when to play Spy and picking the right opportunity to commit. The latter isn't possible for the Pyro to control.
[quote]The fact that you can deal huge amount of damage with basic aiming is the reason why airblast and secondaries are irrevelant, especially in ambush scenarios.[/quote]
I think you're conflating "airblasting isn't good" and "airblasting with the DF isn't good." Airblasting is great. It has a massive hitbox, fucks up their aim, it prevents them from going where they want to do, and reflecting prevents damage to yourself and your team.
I think you're right that you probably won't need to airblast much with the thing if you're in flamethrower range, other than Soldiers jumping into your face and Spies. What I'm concerned about is if a Soldier is straddling the tip of your range and putting out 70 damage rockets into you - if you airblast then they know they're safe enough to fire a free rocket. If you don't airblast or switch weapons, you're not doing anything and will eventually die if you don't leave. And if you do end up airblasting to reflect, you can mitigate the cooldown period of the DF by shooting with your secondary. I think this weakness to mid-ranged spam is really going to put a damper on how good DF is since it's impossible for the DF Pyro to create situations where he can do work, and if the other team doesn't walk into him, ceteris paribus, they will win the fight.
[quote]The real point was that the hitboxes are too big, and you don't need to aim directly to so damage with it. I'm not really arguing that Pyro is OP or unstoppable, I think he's stilö a broken class, ans that DF needa little tweaking in order to be a proper skill weapon imo[/quote]
Rockets and stickies don't need to aim directly to do damage either.
If Pyro isn't overpowered with DF then it should be unbanned.
EDIT:
[quote=syph]
Df requires far less accuracy than any other projectile in the game considering its speed and hitbox. No matter what your experience is if you simply understand the basic concept of projectiles you will hit your shots 90% of the time and that is not ok when it can 2shot light classes.[/quote]
[img]https://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/8/84/Rocket_launcher.png/250px-Rocket_launcher.png?t=20140603154418[/img]
Where are you getting this 90% number from?
Sniper imo should have some kind of weakness vs closer range.
Not so much for 6s, as he's pretty balanced there. But when you have a large team in front of you, in HL for instance, he can get a bit much. Force him to play passive and use sightlines, instead of this.
Sniper imo should have some kind of weakness vs closer range.
Not so much for 6s, as he's pretty balanced there. But when you have a large team in front of you, in HL for instance, he can get a bit much. Force him to play passive and use sightlines, [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNEU3MsqhNk]instead of this[/url].
4812622https://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/8/84/Rocket_launcher.png/250px-Rocket_launcher.png?t=20140603154418
Where are you getting this 90% number from?
can't understand what that image says, please explain in detail.
obviously 90% is a vague speculation. I simply mean that very bad players very often don't miss, and good players pretty much never do.
[quote=4812622]
[img]https://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/8/84/Rocket_launcher.png/250px-Rocket_launcher.png?t=20140603154418[/img]
Where are you getting this 90% number from?[/quote]
can't understand what that image says, please explain in detail.
obviously 90% is a vague speculation. I simply mean that very bad players very often don't miss, and good players pretty much never do.
My thoughts on pyro atm
https://az616578.vo.msecnd.net/files/2016/09/14/6360948027775480071537775930_hgjhgjhfj.jpg
Other specialists are mostly fine, spy is kind of weak but at least he has a defined role in the game
My thoughts on pyro atm
[img]https://az616578.vo.msecnd.net/files/2016/09/14/6360948027775480071537775930_hgjhgjhfj.jpg[/img]
Other specialists are mostly fine, spy is kind of weak but at least he has a defined role in the game
Flames remain broken and DF is just too easy to use. I'm not saying it's so OP that it would wreck in 6s all the time but I think there's plenty of situations where you could use it now and do decent but with minimal effort. The projectile is mega fast and the size of a refrigerator and if any amount of it hits then it hits full force (and then rate of fire goes up and oh yeah 40 round magazine). Really, as suggested, it should be a 'flame shotgun' of sorts where most of the damage is concentrated near the middle and gets notably weaker at the outsides. Another fix would be to leave it how it is but not make it speed up rate of fire.. rather always shoot slowly.
Flames remain broken and DF is just too easy to use. I'm not saying it's so OP that it would wreck in 6s all the time but I think there's plenty of situations where you could use it now and do decent but with minimal effort. The projectile is mega fast and the size of a refrigerator and if any amount of it hits then it hits full force (and then rate of fire goes up and oh yeah 40 round magazine). Really, as suggested, it should be a 'flame shotgun' of sorts where most of the damage is concentrated near the middle and gets notably weaker at the outsides. Another fix would be to leave it how it is but not make it speed up rate of fire.. rather always shoot slowly.
pyro: unban DF and jetpack, they r shit anyway and so is pyro.
spy: in a good place, not that spy mains will say that. spy is only good if u dont run it 24/7.
sniper: its a good class lol
heavy: in a good place, could even consider unbanning gru/en since they are such dog shit. easiest to leave as is tho. natascha is ridiculous tho.
engy: dont allow wrangler and RR ever and we are fine. both weapons r retarded so long as they give sentries such tankability.
my thoughts on specialists as a whole: ya they r fine, people just need to stop expecting to be able to play them in 6s viably. keep in mind, on lasts and when u require a pick, these classes are so much better than scouts and soldiers. that's a good thing that people who enjoy playing these classes should be happy about, but they want more. the dumbest is spy mains. spy is worse in game modes where u r forced to run one than in game modes where you aren't. but i guess they r so dumb they will enjoy playing spy in a game mode where they r caught in 99/100 cases.
also change just for change is fucking retarded i shouldn't even have to explain why. top chess players don't want the possible moves any given piece can make to change 'just 'cause lmao!!!'
pyro: unban DF and jetpack, they r shit anyway and so is pyro.
spy: in a good place, not that spy mains will say that. spy is only good if u dont run it 24/7.
sniper: its a good class lol
heavy: in a good place, could even consider unbanning gru/en since they are such dog shit. easiest to leave as is tho. natascha is ridiculous tho.
engy: dont allow wrangler and RR ever and we are fine. both weapons r retarded so long as they give sentries such tankability.
my thoughts on specialists as a whole: ya they r fine, people just need to stop expecting to be able to play them in 6s viably. keep in mind, on lasts and when u require a pick, these classes are so much better than scouts and soldiers. that's a good thing that people who enjoy playing these classes should be happy about, but they want more. the dumbest is spy mains. spy is worse in game modes where u r forced to run one than in game modes where you aren't. but i guess they r so dumb they will enjoy playing spy in a game mode where they r caught in 99/100 cases.
also change just for change is fucking retarded i shouldn't even have to explain why. top chess players don't want the possible moves any given piece can make to change 'just 'cause lmao!!!'
You basically cant do anything to spy to make him more viable due to how the class plays, being generally a 'one-pick die' playstyle. Sniper is in a good place right now with a high skill ceiling to have a large impact on the game. Heavy, engineer, and pyro can all be reworked, but the engineer is mostly a defensive class in which level 3's are adequate as of right now. Mini-sentries can be reworked so that they become more viable as a possible roamer/scout replacement. Heavy and pyro are generally only for specific situations within a 6v6 game and need a fair bit of work to become truly viable.
You basically cant do anything to spy to make him more viable due to how the class plays, being generally a 'one-pick die' playstyle. Sniper is in a good place right now with a high skill ceiling to have a large impact on the game. Heavy, engineer, and pyro can all be reworked, but the engineer is mostly a defensive class in which level 3's are adequate as of right now. Mini-sentries can be reworked so that they become more viable as a possible roamer/scout replacement. Heavy and pyro are generally only for specific situations within a 6v6 game and need a fair bit of work to become truly viable.
There are 0 offensive specialists in the game.
We have some specialists that are pick classes can be used to defend or attack (sniper/spy). Spy is normally useless after getting an initial pick on offense (though I still feel its a class in a pretty good place right now).
The other 3 specialists all are way better at defending than they are attacking and are almost exclusively used defending last. This is compounded by the spawn door being right there so people can switch off easily.
Imo the game needs some type of specialism more like snipers, where a class can be used to initiate a push and is still useful beyond that play. Imo It would be even more interesting if that class were absolute dogshit at defending so it's truly a specialist in that area. I think this is the design valve should have in mind when they rebalance/add new weapons to classes.
There are 0 offensive specialists in the game.
We have some specialists that are pick classes can be used to defend or attack (sniper/spy). Spy is normally useless after getting an initial pick on offense (though I still feel its a class in a pretty good place right now).
The other 3 specialists all are way better at defending than they are attacking and are almost exclusively used defending last. This is compounded by the spawn door being right there so people can switch off easily.
Imo the game needs some type of specialism more like snipers, where a class can be used to initiate a push and is still useful beyond that play. Imo It would be even more interesting if that class were absolute dogshit at defending so it's truly a specialist in that area. I think this is the design valve should have in mind when they rebalance/add new weapons to classes.
I can’t believe I iust saw someone equate the dragon’s fury to the rocket launcher
The df is so much easier it’s almost sad
I can’t believe I iust saw someone equate the dragon’s fury to the rocket launcher
The df is so much easier it’s almost sad
Heavy is in a good place he just has a boring playstyle. He needs new unlocks more than anything.
Spy needs buffs to his stock playstyle and bugfixes. Pyro matchup is too one sided. Sniper should be easier for him to kill. I don't think buffing the revolver slightly would hurt either.
Pyro needs to be skill indexed. Buff the jetpack so pyro has some air control and it isn't useless in combat. Remove the range limit on the DF but make the hitbox a lot smaller and give it an arc.
Engineer could be made into more of a generalist. Speed pads and mini dispensers would go a long way to achieving this.
Sniper needs to be weaker at close range and missing should be punished more heavily considered spy is pretty much guaranteed to die if he makes a mistake. Reverse falloff of some kind and slower firing rate would be a good start IMO.
Heavy is in a good place he just has a boring playstyle. He needs new unlocks more than anything.
Spy needs buffs to his stock playstyle and bugfixes. Pyro matchup is too one sided. Sniper should be easier for him to kill. I don't think buffing the revolver slightly would hurt either.
Pyro needs to be skill indexed. Buff the jetpack so pyro has some air control and it isn't useless in combat. Remove the range limit on the DF but make the hitbox a lot smaller and give it an arc.
Engineer could be made into more of a generalist. Speed pads and mini dispensers would go a long way to achieving this.
Sniper needs to be weaker at close range and missing should be punished more heavily considered spy is pretty much guaranteed to die if he makes a mistake. Reverse falloff of some kind and slower firing rate would be a good start IMO.
TideTF2Heavy is in a good place he just has a boring playstyle. He needs new unlocks more than anything.
Spy needs buffs to his stock playstyle and bugfixes. Pyro matchup is too one sided. Sniper should be easier for him to kill. I don't think buffing the revolver slightly would hurt either.
Pyro needs to be skill indexed. Buff the jetpack so pyro has some air control and it isn't useless in combat. Remove the range limit on the DF but make the hitbox a lot smaller and give it an arc.
Engineer could be made into more of a generalist. Speed pads and mini dispensers would go a long way to achieving this.
Sniper needs to be weaker at close range and missing should be punished more heavily considered spy is pretty much guaranteed to die if he makes a mistake. Reverse falloff of some kind and slower firing rate would be a good start IMO.
Spy is literally countered by pyro, and counters sniper so i dont see the problem. And all you have to do as sniper to kill a spy is to turn around every now and again.
Engineer doesn't need a speed pad, the soldier's whip just needs to be un banned. I like mini dispensers or some sort of dispenser that build super quickly or cause a healing aura around the texas man himself.
sniper is just fine at short range, it heavily rewards skill for hitting those sick close range shots, firing speed doesnt need changing, and falloff on a sniper rifle doesnt sound right at all.
[quote=TideTF2]Heavy is in a good place he just has a boring playstyle. He needs new unlocks more than anything.
Spy needs buffs to his stock playstyle and bugfixes. Pyro matchup is too one sided. Sniper should be easier for him to kill. I don't think buffing the revolver slightly would hurt either.
Pyro needs to be skill indexed. Buff the jetpack so pyro has some air control and it isn't useless in combat. Remove the range limit on the DF but make the hitbox a lot smaller and give it an arc.
Engineer could be made into more of a generalist. Speed pads and mini dispensers would go a long way to achieving this.
Sniper needs to be weaker at close range and missing should be punished more heavily considered spy is pretty much guaranteed to die if he makes a mistake. Reverse falloff of some kind and slower firing rate would be a good start IMO.[/quote]
Spy is literally countered by pyro, and counters sniper so i dont see the problem. And all you have to do as sniper to kill a spy is to turn around every now and again.
Engineer doesn't need a speed pad, the soldier's whip just needs to be un banned. I like mini dispensers or some sort of dispenser that build super quickly or cause a healing aura around the texas man himself.
sniper is just fine at short range, it heavily rewards skill for hitting those sick close range shots, firing speed doesnt need changing, and falloff on a sniper rifle doesnt sound right at all.
4812622 jetpack is good.
O_O
DF Pyro is aiming extremely large projectiles. Airblast into secondaryis not aiming because it's 100% consistent. I agree that flamethrower tracking has a higher skill ceiling, but flamethrower wasn't the primary weapon, shotgun was
The question about "what deserves to be better" is not something I care about. I only care about if the DF should be unbanned. Whether or not old Degreaser/Shotgun was harder or not is irrelevant to that.
the idea of 'what deserves to be better' was relevant because my point is that they lowered his skill ceiling, but increased his impact by a lot. the old style of pyro was worse but required more effort. it used to be u aim no where near the target, m2 for the obvious arc, switch weps then actually aim a gun. now u just aim in general direction twice amd they die even faster.
we havent even talked about the buff to the w+m1 shit which is what all the pubbers were mad at and required the least amount of skill of killing someone in the game. -6 to -13. thats definitely up there with the most stupidest things theyve done to the game. its irrelevant to u though cause ur just interested in the DF and 6s and im just interested in how people are going to get good at this game / how rewarding or stupid ways of killing are etc.
but since u dont rly care about that and u care about it being unbanned i guess ill just mention why it shouldnt. u cant always help not being in its range i.e on the point which means in some sort of stupid as fuck situation, its gonna be effective in some cherry picked clip.
i dont care about 6s at all nor do i play it but i kno everyone got frustrated when they added all those unlocks the first time round because the game got stupider, was boring to play and didnt accomplish anything but now you can say to a bunch of pubbers who dont actually care that there isnt that many weapon restrictions.
i mean i can see it now. 3 ppl on cap on gully last, DF drops down and insta kills them all. imagine seeing that in a frag vid. does that sound impressive? did the ppl on the cap get out played? its just stupid. it would be the pinnacle of stupidity if allowed and im sure the majority of ppl think so too. watching a DF frag vid would be like watching an OW frag vid.
if you, as an invite player, used that shit in a casted game i think it would be pretty bad for the game. if u talk about tf2 with some cs player or guy from school, the existance of pyro, heavy and engi is the first reason they say this game is for children and its too easy. if u kill those 3 ppl on gullywash last and bobbybasketball looks at that and thinks 'pff these are the best players in the game? i can do that too. im as good as them' then its bad for the game because we lose interest as viewers, ppl playing lose interest gradually because the game is gradually becoming more boring/stupid etc and the game needs less of that.
its not a question of it being OP or underpowered or anything like that. its been play tested and we know its awful to be ran full time, so we wont see it there, but what we would probably see is really stupid last defences where the pyro just gets the most free 6k theyve ever had in their life cause no one who uses this forum is gonna miss with that thing.
old pyro was fucking terrible. if DF is going to be viable in 6s with a gimped airblast and 100% speed and shit range it needs to be better than scouts or soldiers up close, or else why the fuck would you use
it has terrible weapon design. it being better than scouts or soldiers up close isnt an issue at all its just theres a huge difference in amount of effort required, as everyone in this thread hs been saying until they blue in the face. if they increase the range but make it actually impressive to get that 2 shot, like a double donk or something idk, then no ones got any problem with it being like that.
[quote=4812622] jetpack is good.[/quote]
O_O
[quote] DF Pyro is aiming extremely large projectiles. Airblast into secondaryis not aiming because it's 100% consistent. I agree that flamethrower tracking has a higher skill ceiling, but flamethrower wasn't the primary weapon, shotgun was
The question about "what deserves to be better" is not something I care about. I only care about if the DF should be unbanned. Whether or not old Degreaser/Shotgun was harder or not is irrelevant to that.[/quote]
the idea of 'what deserves to be better' was relevant because my point is that they lowered his skill ceiling, but increased his impact by a lot. the old style of pyro was worse but required more effort. it used to be u aim no where near the target, m2 for the obvious arc, switch weps then actually aim a gun. now u just aim in general direction twice amd they die even faster.
we havent even talked about the buff to the w+m1 shit which is what all the pubbers were mad at and required the least amount of skill of killing someone in the game. -6 to -13. thats definitely up there with the most stupidest things theyve done to the game. its irrelevant to u though cause ur just interested in the DF and 6s and im just interested in how people are going to get good at this game / how rewarding or stupid ways of killing are etc.
but since u dont rly care about that and u care about it being unbanned i guess ill just mention why it shouldnt. u cant always help not being in its range i.e on the point which means in some sort of stupid as fuck situation, its gonna be effective in some cherry picked clip.
i dont care about 6s at all nor do i play it but i kno everyone got frustrated when they added all those unlocks the first time round because the game got stupider, was boring to play and didnt accomplish anything but now you can say to a bunch of pubbers who dont actually care that there isnt that many weapon restrictions.
i mean i can see it now. 3 ppl on cap on gully last, DF drops down and insta kills them all. imagine seeing that in a frag vid. does that sound impressive? did the ppl on the cap get out played? its just stupid. it would be the pinnacle of stupidity if allowed and im sure the majority of ppl think so too. watching a DF frag vid would be like watching an OW frag vid.
if you, as an invite player, used that shit in a casted game i think it would be pretty bad for the game. if u talk about tf2 with some cs player or guy from school, the existance of pyro, heavy and engi is the first reason they say this game is for children and its too easy. if u kill those 3 ppl on gullywash last and bobbybasketball looks at that and thinks 'pff these are the best players in the game? i can do that too. im as good as them' then its bad for the game because we lose interest as viewers, ppl playing lose interest gradually because the game is gradually becoming more boring/stupid etc and the game needs less of that.
its not a question of it being OP or underpowered or anything like that. its been play tested and we know its awful to be ran full time, so we wont see it there, but what we would probably see is really stupid last defences where the pyro just gets the most free 6k theyve ever had in their life cause no one who uses this forum is gonna miss with that thing.
[quote] old pyro was fucking terrible. if DF is going to be viable in 6s with a gimped airblast and 100% speed and shit range it needs to be better than scouts or soldiers up close, or else why the fuck would you use [/quote]
it has terrible weapon design. it being better than scouts or soldiers up close isnt an issue at all its just theres a huge difference in amount of effort required, as everyone in this thread hs been saying until they blue in the face. if they increase the range but make it actually impressive to get that 2 shot, like a double donk or something idk, then no ones got any problem with it being like that.
ZestyThere are 0 offensive specialists in the game.
We have some specialists that are pick classes can be used to defend or attack (sniper/spy). Spy is normally useless after getting an initial pick on offense (though I still feel its a class in a pretty good place right now).
The other 3 specialists all are way better at defending than they are attacking and are almost exclusively used defending last. This is compounded by the spawn door being right there so people can switch off easily.
Imo the game needs some type of specialism more like snipers, where a class can be used to initiate a push and is still useful beyond that play. Imo It would be even more interesting if that class were absolute dogshit at defending so it's truly a specialist in that area. I think this is the design valve should have in mind when they rebalance/add new weapons to classes.
We already have offensive classes that are also good at defending. It's not like we are missing anything. A class that could only attack would be a class that you would get stuck with when you need to switch to defense.
Also imo the game works in a way that it is simply impossible for a class to be good at attacking and not at defending. If not the most then one of the most important things that makes the generalist classes good at attacking is that they can do consistent damage among other things. This alone makes them good defenders.
[quote=Zesty]There are 0 offensive specialists in the game.
We have some specialists that are pick classes can be used to defend or attack (sniper/spy). Spy is normally useless after getting an initial pick on offense (though I still feel its a class in a pretty good place right now).
The other 3 specialists all are way better at defending than they are attacking and are almost exclusively used defending last. This is compounded by the spawn door being right there so people can switch off easily.
Imo the game needs some type of specialism more like snipers, where a class can be used to initiate a push and is still useful beyond that play. Imo It would be even more interesting if that class were absolute dogshit at defending so it's truly a specialist in that area. I think this is the design valve should have in mind when they rebalance/add new weapons to classes.[/quote]
We already have offensive classes that are also good at defending. It's not like we are missing anything. A class that could only attack would be a class that you would get stuck with when you need to switch to defense.
Also imo the game works in a way that it is simply impossible for a class to be good at attacking and not at defending. If not the most then one of the most important things that makes the generalist classes good at attacking is that they can do consistent damage among other things. This alone makes them good defenders.
the idea of 'what deserves to be better' was relevant because my point is that they lowered his skill ceiling, but increased his impact by a lot. the old style of pyro was worse but required more effort. it used to be u aim no where near the target, m2 for the obvious arc, switch weps then actually aim a gun. now u just aim in general direction twice amd they die even faster.
The ratio of skill ceiling to impact is irrelevant to balance. Medic is, by far, the class with the highest skill floor, the highest skill to impact ratio, and one of the most powerful classes in the game, yet it isn't banned.
we havent even talked about the buff to the w+m1 shit
I agree, I hate how they ruined flamethrower and I hope they change it back.
I'm pretty sure the 13 per particle is just because they halved particle number and doubled particle damage though.
u cant always help not being in its range i.e on the point which means in some sort of stupid as fuck situation, its gonna be effective in some cherry picked clip.
Then kill everyone who isn't by the Pyro while the Pyro is completely useless, or simply outspam their team. The Pyro can't approach you, there's nothing he can do besides 20 dmg shotgun, Det/Scorch, or use a gutted airblast, all of which are pretty shit.
If we balanced by cherry picked clips, Sniper would be banned because of tviq and powah's streams.
i dont care about 6s at all nor do i play it
That explains a lot, although you clearly do care about 6s or you wouldn't be having this discussion.
but i kno everyone got frustrated when they added all those unlocks the first time round because the game got stupider, was boring to play and didnt accomplish anything but now you can say to a bunch of pubbers who dont actually care that there isnt that many weapon restrictions.
Most of the unlocks after day 0 were fine. Jarate, Machina, Vaccinator, Rescue Ranger, Soda Popper, Battalion's Backup were/are the only issues iirc. Unlocks are not bad, not testing the whitelist is bad.
i mean i can see it now. 3 ppl on cap on gully last, DF drops down and insta kills them all. imagine seeing that in a frag vid. does that sound impressive? did the ppl on the cap get out played? its just stupid. it would be the pinnacle of stupidity if allowed and im sure the majority of ppl think so too. watching a DF frag vid would be like watching an OW frag vid
I think most people believe regular 3ks in frag videos are boring unless they're on Sniper, Spy, or Medic. If we're banning things based on how good they look in frag videos, Medic should be banned because the class is fucking terrible at frag videos. There are so fucking many "get a single kill with an arrow" clips.
Yes, they got outplayed. If you stack cap then you're taking a risk that you can cap it before they collapse on you and do a bunch of splash damage, which you prevent by shoving your teammates up to block spawn while one person caps. Soldier and Demo would be able to punish in the same way, except they can move faster.
Also, DF interacts REALLY weirdly with capture points and I've had so many instances of just not being able to kill anyone remotely near a point for some reason. It's annoying as hell.
Also personally I think offclassing in frag videos is always fun to watch even if it's just like, oh, the Heavy walked out of forward and killed some people. The fact that they have the balls to go on a shitty class and it works out is what's audacious and fun. example at 1:07:
https://youtu.be/P7IiVwVJ2us?t=65
if you, as an invite player, used that shit in a casted game i think it would be pretty bad for the game. if u talk about tf2 with some cs player or guy from school, the existance of pyro, heavy and engi is the first reason they say this game is for children and its too easy. if u kill those 3 ppl on gullywash last and bobbybasketball looks at that and thinks 'pff these are the best players in the game? i can do that too. im as good as them' then its bad for the game because we lose interest as viewers, ppl playing lose interest gradually because the game is gradually becoming more boring/stupid etc and the game needs less of that.
I'm sure Overwatch spikes in interest when a new hero is released. Is Overwatch for children because Torbjorn, Symmetra, Winston, Mei, Bastion, and Orisa exist? Most Overwatch heroes are much easier and have much lower skill ceilings than Pyro - the characters move slower and there's no airstrafing. Headshot heroes and Ana are the exception.
I think competitive 6s would be fun to play at any point past the removal of random crits. However, I think you have it backwards. Most people are not CS players. Most people play class-based shooters because they want variety. I have so many Pyro mains I know who quit the game because they wanted to play Pyro competitively, but 4s is a joke and HL Pyro is soul-crushingly dull.
Personally, I started playing 6s because I saw Salamancer cast mackey doing bullshit things and that one warmfront game with Breloom on Gunslinger Engineer (
https://youtu.be/UtjJERoQ8XM
, and wanted to be exactly like them. I'm sure lots of players who don't main standard classes felt the same way, but never tried 6s because they assumed it would be impossible.
As for people who bitched about every time they die to a Pyro before Jungle update, I have no sympathy. Press s. Don't shoot rockets until they airblast. It is not complex or difficult to completely negate a Pyro outside of its role in stalling Ubers, everyone who said otherwise pre Jungle update has either never thought about it, never played Pyro, and/or is shit.
its not a question of it being OP or underpowered or anything like that. its been play tested and we know its awful to be ran full time, so we wont see it there, but what we would probably see is really stupid last defences where the pyro just gets the most free 6k theyve ever had in their life cause no one who uses this forum is gonna miss with that thing.
it has terrible weapon design. it being better than scouts or soldiers up close isnt an issue at all its just theres a huge difference in amount of effort required, as everyone in this thread hs been saying until they blue in the face. if they increase the range but make it actually impressive to get that 2 shot, like a double donk or something idk, then no ones got any problem with it being like that.
Find me a player who hits every shot with the DF who is shit at Soldier / Scout / Demo, and I'll concede the argument.
It's really not as easy as you think it is to fight competent players with it. The gimped airblast, slow switch speed, slow walk speed while firing, shit range, and extreme punishment for missing all contribute to the weapon's weaknesses. Being useless at midrange with no reliable way to approach is really, really bad. It makes it significantly worse at fighting Soldiers, yet you are basically forced to try to fight people, lest you bait your team, because you lack the utility of a spammable airblast like normal Pyro that allows you to play passive and not be a waste of a player slot.
Also that change sounds fantastic. Doesn't mean it should be banned now.
what we would probably see is really stupid last defences where the pyro just gets the most free 6k theyve ever had in their life
Heavy and Sentry are stronger on last because they have range. DF Pyro will get obliterated by slow pushing. It might be good on small maps like Badlands and Gullywash where the range isn't so much of a factor, but Heavy and Sentry aren't entirely negated by the "commit through the other entrances" strat.
[quote]the idea of 'what deserves to be better' was relevant because my point is that they lowered his skill ceiling, but increased his impact by a lot. the old style of pyro was worse but required more effort. it used to be u aim no where near the target, m2 for the obvious arc, switch weps then actually aim a gun. now u just aim in general direction twice amd they die even faster.[/quote]
The ratio of skill ceiling to impact is irrelevant to balance. Medic is, by far, the class with the highest skill floor, the highest skill to impact ratio, and one of the most powerful classes in the game, yet it isn't banned.
[quote]we havent even talked about the buff to the w+m1 shit[/quote]
I agree, I hate how they ruined flamethrower and I hope they change it back.
I'm pretty sure the 13 per particle is just because they halved particle number and doubled particle damage though.
[quote]u cant always help not being in its range i.e on the point which means in some sort of stupid as fuck situation, its gonna be effective in some cherry picked clip.[/quote]
Then kill everyone who isn't by the Pyro while the Pyro is completely useless, or simply outspam their team. The Pyro can't approach you, there's nothing he can do besides 20 dmg shotgun, Det/Scorch, or use a gutted airblast, all of which are pretty shit.
If we balanced by cherry picked clips, Sniper would be banned because of tviq and powah's streams.
[quote]i dont care about 6s at all nor do i play it[/quote]
That explains a lot, although you clearly do care about 6s or you wouldn't be having this discussion.
[quote]but i kno everyone got frustrated when they added all those unlocks the first time round because the game got stupider, was boring to play and didnt accomplish anything but now you can say to a bunch of pubbers who dont actually care that there isnt that many weapon restrictions.[/quote]
Most of the unlocks after day 0 were fine. Jarate, Machina, Vaccinator, Rescue Ranger, Soda Popper, Battalion's Backup were/are the only issues iirc. Unlocks are not bad, not testing the whitelist is bad.
[quote]i mean i can see it now. 3 ppl on cap on gully last, DF drops down and insta kills them all. imagine seeing that in a frag vid. does that sound impressive? did the ppl on the cap get out played? its just stupid. it would be the pinnacle of stupidity if allowed and im sure the majority of ppl think so too. watching a DF frag vid would be like watching an OW frag vid[/quote]
I think most people believe regular 3ks in frag videos are boring unless they're on Sniper, Spy, or Medic. If we're banning things based on how good they look in frag videos, Medic should be banned because the class is fucking terrible at frag videos. There are so fucking many "get a single kill with an arrow" clips.
Yes, they got outplayed. If you stack cap then you're taking a risk that you can cap it before they collapse on you and do a bunch of splash damage, which you prevent by shoving your teammates up to block spawn while one person caps. Soldier and Demo would be able to punish in the same way, except they can move faster.
Also, DF interacts REALLY weirdly with capture points and I've had so many instances of just not being able to kill anyone remotely near a point for some reason. It's annoying as hell.
Also personally I think offclassing in frag videos is always fun to watch even if it's just like, oh, the Heavy walked out of forward and killed some people. The fact that they have the balls to go on a shitty class and it works out is what's audacious and fun. example at 1:07: [youtube]https://youtu.be/P7IiVwVJ2us?t=65[/youtube]
[quote]if you, as an invite player, used that shit in a casted game i think it would be pretty bad for the game. if u talk about tf2 with some cs player or guy from school, the existance of pyro, heavy and engi is the first reason they say this game is for children and its too easy. if u kill those 3 ppl on gullywash last and bobbybasketball looks at that and thinks 'pff these are the best players in the game? i can do that too. im as good as them' then its bad for the game because we lose interest as viewers, ppl playing lose interest gradually because the game is gradually becoming more boring/stupid etc and the game needs less of that.[/quote]
I'm sure Overwatch spikes in interest when a new hero is released. Is Overwatch for children because Torbjorn, Symmetra, Winston, Mei, Bastion, and Orisa exist? Most Overwatch heroes are much easier and have much lower skill ceilings than Pyro - the characters move slower and there's no airstrafing. Headshot heroes and Ana are the exception.
I think competitive 6s would be fun to play at any point past the removal of random crits. However, I think you have it backwards. Most people are not CS players. Most people play class-based shooters because they want variety. I have so many Pyro mains I know who quit the game because they wanted to play Pyro competitively, but 4s is a joke and HL Pyro is soul-crushingly dull.
Personally, I started playing 6s because I saw Salamancer cast mackey doing bullshit things and that one warmfront game with Breloom on Gunslinger Engineer ([youtube]https://youtu.be/UtjJERoQ8XM[/youtube], and wanted to be [i]exactly like them.[/i] I'm sure lots of players who don't main standard classes felt the same way, but never tried 6s because they assumed it would be impossible.
As for people who bitched about every time they die to a Pyro before Jungle update, I have no sympathy. Press s. Don't shoot rockets until they airblast. It is not complex or difficult to completely negate a Pyro outside of its role in stalling Ubers, everyone who said otherwise pre Jungle update has either never thought about it, never played Pyro, and/or is shit.
[quote]its not a question of it being OP or underpowered or anything like that. its been play tested and we know its awful to be ran full time, so we wont see it there, but what we would probably see is really stupid last defences where the pyro just gets the most free 6k theyve ever had in their life cause no one who uses this forum is gonna miss with that thing.
it has terrible weapon design. it being better than scouts or soldiers up close isnt an issue at all its just theres a huge difference in amount of effort required, as everyone in this thread hs been saying until they blue in the face. if they increase the range but make it actually impressive to get that 2 shot, like a double donk or something idk, then no ones got any problem with it being like that.[/quote]
Find me a player who hits every shot with the DF who is shit at Soldier / Scout / Demo, and I'll concede the argument.
It's really not as easy as you think it is to fight competent players with it. The gimped airblast, slow switch speed, slow walk speed while firing, shit range, and extreme punishment for missing all contribute to the weapon's weaknesses. Being useless at midrange with no reliable way to approach is really, really bad. It makes it significantly worse at fighting Soldiers, yet you are basically forced to try to fight people, lest you bait your team, because you lack the utility of a spammable airblast like normal Pyro that allows you to play passive and not be a waste of a player slot.
Also that change sounds fantastic. Doesn't mean it should be banned now.
[quote]what we would probably see is really stupid last defences where the pyro just gets the most free 6k theyve ever had in their life [/quote]
Heavy and Sentry are stronger on last because they have range. DF Pyro will get obliterated by slow pushing. It might be good on small maps like Badlands and Gullywash where the range isn't so much of a factor, but Heavy and Sentry aren't entirely negated by the "commit through the other entrances" strat.
my original and on going points were never about 6s. i dont care about it, i was just explaining why ur getting down fragged for wanting it to be put in. what i was going on about is how over time, valve has made it easier and easier to be effective with minimal effort, which then leads to people having 1000s of hours with minimal skill.
medic is obv not even included in wat im saying because its not a class designed to kill people, its a class designed to help people kill people. as far as engi goes, which is a class designed to kill people, the game would lose absolutely nothing if the level 3 sentry gun was something you had to aim, and it was difficult, other than if youre a better player than that engi, you can out play the engi now. it also makes the class more fun because u arent just jerking off behind the game playing itself for u. level 3 sentries are the reason why pubs are so boring to play. why do i have to be more concious about some facking building than real people playing?
and as far as the gunslinger goes, which was designed to make the engi into a combat class, why is it that every single gunslinger engi, u never see him, its just the gun and then he goes hiding. its supposed to be the gun supporting the engi, but whats really going on is its the engi supporting the gun. the engi does dickcheese while the sentry plays the game, which defeats its initial purpose. which is actually a shit way to describe why it should be changed in general, but if theyre gonna go by the logic that the amby wasnt designed to kill at long range, why wouldnt this point be valid. the gunslinger doesnt meet the design of the engi not playing like a pussy, they still play like pussy, so why not change it?
if they lowered the damage/did a cooldown or something, and then gave the engi 200 hp, wats the problem? surely that achieves the goal of making the engi more combat based moreso than the current design, but ofc now the engi gotta play the game now.
i cant think of another game where like 90 percent of people playing the lowest level of play have been playing the game for 2000 hours, atleast a year or two. its because of all the dumb pointless easy shit in the game that doesnt amount to anything or transfer, where u can put ur crosshair a million kilometers to the side of someone and still hit.
its actually kind of mad ur still trying to defend the wep after that pic too btw.
u know full well why ppl dont think OW is for children. the difference is, money was thrown at it. if OW was released when TF2 was released and had the same money situation we have with TF2, that game wouldnt even be playable in 2017 for reasons like the classes u mentioned.
about shooting the players around the pyro isnt realistic at all either. the 4 other people take time to kill. ur acting like pyros movespeed is slower than heavy, and since ur talking about 6s, where fights happen in controlled areas, they are hardly ever that big anyway. so u shoot the 4 ppl, and while u are you get insta killed.
http://etf2l.org/forum/user/51862/ heres the player not good at those classes but plays pyro in mid level, before the update. idk about the DF but im like 90 percent sure he will never miss with it. as in he might miss a shot, but everyones gonna miss one on a standing still player anyways.
it doesnt even matter because banny isnt either. again, look at how far the thing is. your liking of it to pipes was so far off i dont get that at all. its not a projectile like the huntsman at all, its much more like hitscan, and bannys not gonna have his crosshair THAT far off even when he misses hitscan. its not a projectile in the sense u gotta predict anything.
but lets say it is unbanned and all those pyro ppl got to main their god awfully designed main in 6s, now all those people playikg cookie cutter now gotta scrim that shit, then after scrim 6s as we know it. ppl arent gonna scrim it, ppl using it are now labelled as 'meme teams' like lowpander. if i make a poll and asked the players who are actually playing it whether they would enjoy their games if every other scrim, they got a full time pyro, im sure the vast majority would say they wouldn't
and ya, the airblast penalty, switch speed shit all that shit is true. full time pyro isnt good, u can read 1000 posts and ask 100000 invite players and they would say da same shit, no one thinks it is, but it is stupid as in more stupid than the market gardener. if we just humor the idea that its difficult to use, just as difficult as shown in the pic, and then u actually do die to it, its like dying to a spy its fuckimg stupid. im glad u used that backstab analogy because thats exactly what it feels like.
where are all these ppl playing classed based shooters btw idk anyone who plays them other than OW. if u go to the average person and they say they play FPS its always CS
my original and on going points were never about 6s. i dont care about it, i was just explaining why ur getting down fragged for wanting it to be put in. what i was going on about is how over time, valve has made it easier and easier to be effective with minimal effort, which then leads to people having 1000s of hours with minimal skill.
medic is obv not even included in wat im saying because its not a class designed to kill people, its a class designed to help people kill people. as far as engi goes, which is a class designed to kill people, the game would lose absolutely nothing if the level 3 sentry gun was something you had to aim, and it was difficult, other than if youre a better player than that engi, you can out play the engi now. it also makes the class more fun because u arent just jerking off behind the game playing itself for u. level 3 sentries are the reason why pubs are so boring to play. why do i have to be more concious about some facking building than real people playing?
and as far as the gunslinger goes, which was designed to make the engi into a combat class, why is it that every single gunslinger engi, u never see him, its just the gun and then he goes hiding. its supposed to be the gun supporting the engi, but whats really going on is its the engi supporting the gun. the engi does dickcheese while the sentry plays the game, which defeats its initial purpose. which is actually a shit way to describe why it should be changed in general, but if theyre gonna go by the logic that the amby wasnt designed to kill at long range, why wouldnt this point be valid. the gunslinger doesnt meet the design of the engi not playing like a pussy, they still play like pussy, so why not change it?
if they lowered the damage/did a cooldown or something, and then gave the engi 200 hp, wats the problem? surely that achieves the goal of making the engi more combat based moreso than the current design, but ofc now the engi gotta play the game now.
i cant think of another game where like 90 percent of people playing the lowest level of play have been playing the game for 2000 hours, atleast a year or two. its because of all the dumb pointless easy shit in the game that doesnt amount to anything or transfer, where u can put ur crosshair a million kilometers to the side of someone and still hit.
its actually kind of mad ur still trying to defend the wep after that pic too btw.
u know full well why ppl dont think OW is for children. the difference is, money was thrown at it. if OW was released when TF2 was released and had the same money situation we have with TF2, that game wouldnt even be playable in 2017 for reasons like the classes u mentioned.
about shooting the players around the pyro isnt realistic at all either. the 4 other people take time to kill. ur acting like pyros movespeed is slower than heavy, and since ur talking about 6s, where fights happen in controlled areas, they are hardly ever that big anyway. so u shoot the 4 ppl, and while u are you get insta killed.
http://etf2l.org/forum/user/51862/ heres the player not good at those classes but plays pyro in mid level, before the update. idk about the DF but im like 90 percent sure he will never miss with it. as in he might miss a shot, but everyones gonna miss one on a standing still player anyways.
it doesnt even matter because banny isnt either. again, look at how far the thing is. your liking of it to pipes was so far off i dont get that at all. its not a projectile like the huntsman at all, its much more like hitscan, and bannys not gonna have his crosshair THAT far off even when he misses hitscan. its not a projectile in the sense u gotta predict anything.
but lets say it is unbanned and all those pyro ppl got to main their god awfully designed main in 6s, now all those people playikg cookie cutter now gotta scrim that shit, then after scrim 6s as we know it. ppl arent gonna scrim it, ppl using it are now labelled as 'meme teams' like lowpander. if i make a poll and asked the players who are actually playing it whether they would enjoy their games if every other scrim, they got a full time pyro, im sure the vast majority would say they wouldn't
and ya, the airblast penalty, switch speed shit all that shit is true. full time pyro isnt good, u can read 1000 posts and ask 100000 invite players and they would say da same shit, no one thinks it is, but it is stupid as in more stupid than the market gardener. if we just humor the idea that its difficult to use, just as difficult as shown in the pic, and then u actually do die to it, its like dying to a spy its fuckimg stupid. im glad u used that backstab analogy because thats exactly what it feels like.
where are all these ppl playing classed based shooters btw idk anyone who plays them other than OW. if u go to the average person and they say they play FPS its always CS
Alright students I will be grading your essays soon and they will serve as your finals for this semester
Alright students I will be grading your essays soon and they will serve as your finals for this semester
why are neets theorycrafting pyro skill ceiling lmao if u think pyro has any depth beyond learning how to wave your mouse in a 90 degree arc vageuly near other entities in the server while occasionally pressing mouse2 to shoot rockets back at people that do 130% damage then idk what to tell you. it was a joke of a concept in 2007 and its even moreso now.
why are neets theorycrafting pyro skill ceiling lmao if u think pyro has any depth beyond learning how to wave your mouse in a 90 degree arc vageuly near other entities in the server while occasionally pressing mouse2 to shoot rockets back at people that do 130% damage then idk what to tell you. it was a joke of a concept in 2007 and its even moreso now.
my original and on going points were never about 6s.
Yeah, I misunderstood what you were talking about. TF2 general discussion is a subforum about 6s usually, I didn't realize you were talking about pubs.
valve has made it easier and easier to be effective with minimal effort, which then leads to people having 1000s of hours with minimal skill.
medic is obv not even included in wat im saying because its not a class designed to kill people, its a class designed to help people kill people.
You contradicted yourself. TF2 is not a game about killing people. You win TF2 by completing the objective. You're using the wrong metric, probably because you don't play 6s. In pubs, there's no teamwork, and no reward for completing an objective - people become focused on what they decide matters, like topscoring, or getting a bunch of kills, or a high KDR. In 6s there is only winning.
Whether or not something is better at killing people is irrelevant, whether or not something is better at winning is what's important. For example, the Crossbow is worse at killing people and a much stronger weapon than the Syringe. The Battalion's Backup outclasses the Shotgun even though it's worse at killing things. Escape Plan is much weaker at killing people than Market Gardener but a stronger option because it provides an essential escape and repositioning tool for low heatlh/ammo Soldiers that compensates for a weakness. Jarate and Mad Milk are great examples, you lose a bit of sustain from Pistol but gain disgusting amounts of utility for your team. When people who are playing to win pick their unlocks, they (should) measure the strength of each option by how likely it is to make their team win, not about how high they can pad their stats.
Therefore, the fact that Medic doesn't kill people is irrelevant to the pressing concern that Medic is the easiest class yet one of the most powerful, and that contradiction can only be resolved if you admit that skill-to-impact ratio doesn't matter in terms of balancing.
as far as engi goes, which is a class designed to kill people, the game would lose absolutely nothing if the level 3 sentry gun was something you had to aim, and it was difficult, other than if youre a better player than that engi, you can out play the engi now. it also makes the class more fun because u arent just jerking off behind the game playing itself for u. level 3 sentries are the reason why pubs are so boring to play. why do i have to be more concious about some facking building than real people playing?
[gunslinger complaints and suggestions]
You're doing that thing again, that thing where you talk about a hypothetical to avoid admitting that you have no counter to my argument that Engineer should be banned, according to your philosophy, because it takes zero skill to build sentries yet they kill people.
I agree with you that Sentries have too high of a skill to impact ratio.
For me, the joy of Engineer is pushing with it, as it's an extremely inflexible class and requires a lot of situational awareness and ability to understand what's going on, or you're very easily punished for building your gun in the wrong spot or moving it at the wrong time. I hate the Gunslinger because mini-sentries are cheap and fast-building, so you aren't punished for making mistakes and it still takes no aim to kill people. But it's still allowed in 6s. Why? Because it's not very good. If we were balancing based on skill-to-impact ratio then Engineer, or at least Gunslinger, would be banned. Therefore 6s banning philosophy does not depend on skill-to-impact ratio.
I'm skipping past more suggestions to fix Engineer. I want to talk about them but I hit word limit last time and my goal is to unban DF.
i cant think of another game where like 90 percent of people playing the lowest level of play have been playing the game for 2000 hours, atleast a year or two. its because of all the dumb pointless easy shit in the game that doesnt amount to anything or transfer, where u can put ur crosshair a million kilometers to the side of someone and still hit.
I don't think so. That may be a contributing factor, but it's certainly not the reason.
It's because there was no official competitive matchmaking for a long time, and now that there is, it's fucking garbage and nobody cares about it.
For people who didn't play league competitive, regular TF2 spent a long time where winning wasn't actually the point, you get to choose how you have fun in the game. The people who care about winning are a small portion of the pub community. Some of those people found league TF2. Some of them disregarded it because they met toxic competitive players in lobbies or in pubs, which also happens in other games. Some of those people found in-game matchmaking first and, upon realizing that there is no reward, no rank-based matching, no class limits, no whitelist, no communication, and no teamwork, decided that competitive TF2 was stupid and decided to never try it again.
This is what makes TF2 unique – it's a multiplayer FPS without official competitive, which disincentives winning, and therefore, improving mechanics.
its actually kind of mad ur still trying to defend the wep after that pic too btw
What pic?
u know full well why ppl dont think OW is for children. the difference is, money was thrown at it. if OW was released when TF2 was released and had the same money situation we have with TF2, that game wouldnt even be playable in 2017 for reasons like the classes u mentioned.
Hm, that's an interesting point. I have no way of proving that you're not right.
I'll attack this “we won't be able to attract serious CS players because dragon's fury is stupid” from a new angle.
Serious CS players already think this game is a joke.
The playerbase that competitive TF2 wants to attract is the 99% of players who love TF2 and don't play competitive. If Pyro was viable, then let's say another 1/9 of the playerbase joins. That's a 25% increase if we assume that there is roughly the same amount of players for every class, and probably more than that since nobody likes playing Medic.
So many pubbers complain about a “stale metagame where nothing ever changes.” Robin Walker did as well – commenting on the competitive scene in some Community vs Pro thing, he said as much, as well as something along the lines of “I wish we could see innovation in the meta like vhalin running Black Box in HL every week.” Change makes people curious and interested. Players who have never played competitive TF2 can only understand the most obvious changes in the meta, which are offclassing, unlocks, and maps. I think the lowest common denominator demographic of TF2 would be more interested in 6s if Pyro was viable.
[quote]my original and on going points were never about 6s.[/quote]
Yeah, I misunderstood what you were talking about. TF2 general discussion is a subforum about 6s usually, I didn't realize you were talking about pubs.
[quote]valve has made it easier and easier to be [b]effective [/b]with minimal effort, which then leads to people having 1000s of hours with minimal skill.
medic is obv not even included in wat im saying because its not a class designed to [b][u]kill people[/u][/b], its a class designed to help people kill people. [/quote]
You contradicted yourself. TF2 is not a game about killing people. You win TF2 by completing the objective. You're using the wrong metric, probably because you don't play 6s. In pubs, there's no teamwork, and no reward for completing an objective - people become focused on what they decide matters, like topscoring, or getting a bunch of kills, or a high KDR. In 6s there is only winning.
Whether or not something is better at killing people is irrelevant, whether or not something is better at winning is what's important. For example, the Crossbow is worse at killing people and a much stronger weapon than the Syringe. The Battalion's Backup outclasses the Shotgun even though it's worse at killing things. Escape Plan is much weaker at killing people than Market Gardener but a stronger option because it provides an essential escape and repositioning tool for low heatlh/ammo Soldiers that compensates for a weakness. Jarate and Mad Milk are great examples, you lose a bit of sustain from Pistol but gain disgusting amounts of utility for your team. When people who are playing to win pick their unlocks, they (should) measure the strength of each option by how likely it is to make their team win, not about how high they can pad their stats.
Therefore, the fact that Medic doesn't kill people is irrelevant to the pressing concern that Medic is the easiest class yet one of the most powerful, and that contradiction can only be resolved if you admit that skill-to-impact ratio doesn't matter in terms of balancing.
[quote]as far as engi goes, which is a class designed to kill people, the game would lose absolutely nothing if the level 3 sentry gun was something you had to aim, and it was difficult, other than if youre a better player than that engi, you can out play the engi now. it also makes the class more fun because u arent just jerking off behind the game playing itself for u. level 3 sentries are the reason why pubs are so boring to play. why do i have to be more concious about some facking building than real people playing?
[gunslinger complaints and suggestions][/quote]
You're doing that thing again, that thing where you talk about a hypothetical to avoid admitting that you have no counter to my argument that Engineer should be banned, according to your philosophy, because it takes zero skill to build sentries yet they kill people.
I agree with you that Sentries have too high of a skill to impact ratio.
For me, the joy of Engineer is pushing with it, as it's an extremely inflexible class and requires a lot of situational awareness and ability to understand what's going on, or you're very easily punished for building your gun in the wrong spot or moving it at the wrong time. I hate the Gunslinger because mini-sentries are cheap and fast-building, so you aren't punished for making mistakes and it still takes no aim to kill people. But it's still allowed in 6s. Why? Because it's not very good. If we were balancing based on skill-to-impact ratio then Engineer, or at least Gunslinger, would be banned. Therefore 6s banning philosophy does not depend on skill-to-impact ratio.
I'm skipping past more suggestions to fix Engineer. I want to talk about them but I hit word limit last time and my goal is to unban DF.
[quote]i cant think of another game where like 90 percent of people playing the lowest level of play have been playing the game for 2000 hours, atleast a year or two. its because of all the dumb pointless easy shit in the game that doesnt amount to anything or transfer, where u can put ur crosshair a million kilometers to the side of someone and still hit.[/quote]
I don't think so. That may be a contributing factor, but it's certainly not the reason.
It's because there was no official competitive matchmaking for a long time, and now that there is, it's fucking garbage and nobody cares about it.
For people who didn't play league competitive, regular TF2 spent a long time where winning wasn't actually the point, you get to choose how you have fun in the game. The people who care about winning are a small portion of the pub community. Some of those people found league TF2. Some of them disregarded it because they met toxic competitive players in lobbies or in pubs, which also happens in other games. Some of those people found in-game matchmaking first and, upon realizing that there is no reward, no rank-based matching, no class limits, no whitelist, no communication, and no teamwork, decided that competitive TF2 was stupid and decided to never try it again.
This is what makes TF2 unique – it's a multiplayer FPS without official competitive, which disincentives winning, and therefore, improving mechanics.
[quote]its actually kind of mad ur still trying to defend the wep after that pic too btw[/quote]
What pic?
[quote]u know full well why ppl dont think OW is for children. the difference is, money was thrown at it. if OW was released when TF2 was released and had the same money situation we have with TF2, that game wouldnt even be playable in 2017 for reasons like the classes u mentioned.[/quote]
Hm, that's an interesting point. I have no way of proving that you're not right.
I'll attack this “we won't be able to attract serious CS players because dragon's fury is stupid” from a new angle.
Serious CS players already think this game is a joke.
The playerbase that competitive TF2 wants to attract is the 99% of players who love TF2 and don't play competitive. If Pyro was viable, then let's say another 1/9 of the playerbase joins. That's a 25% increase if we assume that there is roughly the same amount of players for every class, and probably more than that since nobody likes playing Medic.
So many pubbers complain about a “stale metagame where nothing ever changes.” Robin Walker did as well – commenting on the competitive scene in some Community vs Pro thing, he said as much, as well as something along the lines of “I wish we could see innovation in the meta like vhalin running Black Box in HL every week.” Change makes people curious and interested. Players who have never played competitive TF2 can only understand the most obvious changes in the meta, which are offclassing, unlocks, and maps. I think the lowest common denominator demographic of TF2 would be more interested in 6s if Pyro was viable.
Obviously, you can go from this point to saying “well, do you think we should unban Wrangler / Short Circuit so Engineer can be viable in 6s and attract Engineers to 6s?” and so on, but I can counter that by saying those unlocks are overpowered and being overpowered is why things are banned, which still doesn't violate my point that “We should aim to entice the existing TF2 playerbase and seeing Pyro run in 6s will interest that demographic.”
about shooting the players around the pyro isnt realistic at all either. the 4 other people take time to kill. ur acting like pyros movespeed is slower than heavy, and since ur talking about 6s, where fights happen in controlled areas, they are hardly ever that big anyway. so u shoot the 4 ppl, and while u are you get insta killed.
What are you talking about? Almost every last on every map has a ton of room and different entrances spread out. If the pushing team pressures the flank they can easily get a pick before anyone can rotate, especially not a Pyro. Then they take the 6v5 and win because it's a 6v5.
You seem to be under the impression that Pyro can 1v2 / 1v4 / 1v6 people with the Dragon's Fury, which is obviously not true assuming all players are of roughly equal skill.
http://etf2l.org/forum/user/51862/ heres the player not good at those classes but plays pyro in mid level, before the update. idk about the DF but im like 90 percent sure he will never miss with it. as in he might miss a shot, but everyones gonna miss one on a standing still player anyways.
Sizzlingstats is broken and there are only HL demos on demos.tf Give me a demo of a close scrim and if he hits every shot, I'll retract my statement.
Also, some ETF2L players tell me what level an ETF2L mid player is in terms of NA leagues because I don't pay attention to you guys outside of i-series. I've asked some people and the consensus seems to be that ETF2L mid is like mid ESEA Open. If that's true, then this guy is too low level to make any judgments based on him.
it doesnt even matter because banny isnt either.
He isn't what?
again, look at how far the thing is. your liking of it to pipes was so far off i dont get that at all. its not a projectile like the huntsman at all, its much more like hitscan and bannys not gonna have his crosshair THAT far off even when he misses hitscan. its not a projectile in the sense u gotta predict anything.
This makes me doubt your competence and question if you have ever fought a competent player with it.
Yes, you have to lead with it.
No, if you aim it like hitscan the hitbox will not compensate for you not leading.
This makes me think you are still in the mindset of “The Pyro will always be fighting at super close range.” In those cases you'd be right. Most fights are not at close range in 6s, you can't create fights at close range without relying on the other team's mistakes, and people will not approach a Dragon's Fury Pyro when they can win the fight by staying outside of flamethrower range. I've recorded some footage of Dragon's Fury MGE (against an Invite player) and we can watch it together in slow motion, if you like, but I don't have experience with video editing so it may take a bit.
but lets say it is unbanned and all those pyro ppl got to main their god awfully designed main in 6s, now all those people playikg cookie cutter now gotta scrim that shit, then after scrim 6s as we know it. ppl arent gonna scrim it, ppl using it are now labelled as 'meme teams' like lowpander. if i make a poll and asked the players who are actually playing it whether they would enjoy their games if every other scrim, they got a full time pyro, im sure the vast majority would say they wouldn't
If Dragon's Fury is a viable option, then people are going to run it in matches. Therefore, teams will scrim with it, because they want to be prepared for it when it comes out in a match.
The reason people don't want to scrim Lowpander is because Lowpander strategies are not viable and only the meme team in question uses those strategies, which makes it bad practice for playing against anyone except Lowpander.
If Dragon's Fury isn't viable in matches, then nobody will run it in scrims who doesn't already go full-muuki in scrims because they don't want to lose scrim partners.
and ya, the airblast penalty, switch speed shit all that shit is true. full time pyro isnt good, u can read 1000 posts and ask 100000 invite players and they would say da same shit, no one thinks it is, but it is stupid as in more stupid than the market gardener.
The Market Gardener is a joke. You counter market gardener by not moving predictably and hitscan. It's similar to the Dragon's Fury in that if you fuck up with it you are punished extremely hard (since you have to strafe very close to your target, they can predict where you're going to fly, which makes it easy to line up shots).
and then u actually do die to it, its like dying to a spy its fuckimg stupid. im glad u used that backstab analogy because thats exactly what it feels like.
Why didn't you turn around?
Spy isn't banned. If you think the analogy from Dragon's Fury to Spy is accurate, and Spy isn't banned, then doesn't that follow that Dragon's Fury shouldn't be banned? Just like you can easily turn around to prevent a backstab, you can easily not walk into a Pyro and not take damage from Dragon's Fury.
Spy is the least complained about class in 6s by several orders of magnitude (in fact I don't think I've ever heard anyone complain about Spy outside of Diamondback, old Red-Tape Recorder, old Enforcer, and seeing disguises through walls). This is because whenever you get killed by a Spy it's obviously your fault.
eddie_calderonwhy are neets theorycrafting pyro skill ceiling lmao if u think pyro has any depth beyond learning how to wave your mouse in a 90 degree arc vageuly near other entities in the server while occasionally pressing mouse2 to shoot rockets back at people that do 130% damage then idk what to tell you. it was a joke of a concept in 2007 and its even moreso now.
First question: who are you?
Second and third questions: why do you think your opinion holds any weight, or that the fact that you endorse a particular side matters?
Fourth question: why did you click on this thread if you didn't want to read discussions about 6s class balance?
Obviously, you can go from this point to saying “well, do you think we should unban Wrangler / Short Circuit so Engineer can be viable in 6s and attract Engineers to 6s?” and so on, but I can counter that by saying those unlocks are overpowered and being overpowered is why things are banned, which still doesn't violate my point that “We should aim to entice the existing TF2 playerbase and seeing Pyro run in 6s will interest that demographic.”
[quote]about shooting the players around the pyro isnt realistic at all either. the 4 other people take time to kill. ur acting like pyros movespeed is slower than heavy, and since ur talking about 6s, where fights happen in controlled areas, they are hardly ever that big anyway. so u shoot the 4 ppl, and while u are you get insta killed.[/quote]
What are you talking about? Almost every last on every map has a ton of room and different entrances spread out. If the pushing team pressures the flank they can easily get a pick before anyone can rotate, especially not a Pyro. Then they take the 6v5 and win because it's a 6v5.
You seem to be under the impression that Pyro can 1v2 / 1v4 / 1v6 people with the Dragon's Fury, which is obviously not true assuming all players are of roughly equal skill.
[quote]http://etf2l.org/forum/user/51862/ heres the player not good at those classes but plays pyro in mid level, before the update. idk about the DF but im like 90 percent sure he will never miss with it. as in he might miss a shot, but everyones gonna miss one on a standing still player anyways.[/quote]
Sizzlingstats is broken and there are only HL demos on demos.tf Give me a demo of a close scrim and if he hits every shot, I'll retract my statement.
Also, some ETF2L players tell me what level an ETF2L mid player is in terms of NA leagues because I don't pay attention to you guys outside of i-series. I've asked some people and the consensus seems to be that ETF2L mid is like mid ESEA Open. If that's true, then this guy is too low level to make any judgments based on him.
[quote]it doesnt even matter because banny isnt either.[/quote]
He isn't what?
[quote]again, look at how far the thing is. your liking of it to pipes was so far off i dont get that at all. its not a projectile like the huntsman at all, its much more like hitscan and bannys not gonna have his crosshair THAT far off even when he misses hitscan. its not a projectile in the sense u gotta predict anything.[/quote]
This makes me doubt your competence and question if you have ever fought a competent player with it.
Yes, you have to lead with it.
No, if you aim it like hitscan the hitbox will not compensate for you not leading.
This makes me think you are still in the mindset of “The Pyro will always be fighting at super close range.” In those cases you'd be right. Most fights are not at close range in 6s, you can't create fights at close range without relying on the other team's mistakes, and people will not approach a Dragon's Fury Pyro when they can win the fight by staying outside of flamethrower range. I've recorded some footage of Dragon's Fury MGE (against an Invite player) and we can watch it together in slow motion, if you like, but I don't have experience with video editing so it may take a bit.
[quote]but lets say it is unbanned and all those pyro ppl got to main their god awfully designed main in 6s, now all those people playikg cookie cutter now gotta scrim that shit, then after scrim 6s as we know it. ppl arent gonna scrim it, ppl using it are now labelled as 'meme teams' like lowpander. if i make a poll and asked the players who are actually playing it whether they would enjoy their games if every other scrim, they got a full time pyro, im sure the vast majority would say they wouldn't[/quote]
If Dragon's Fury is a viable option, then people are going to run it in matches. Therefore, teams will scrim with it, because they want to be prepared for it when it comes out in a match.
The reason people don't want to scrim Lowpander is because Lowpander strategies are not viable and only the meme team in question uses those strategies, which makes it bad practice for playing against anyone except Lowpander.
If Dragon's Fury isn't viable in matches, then nobody will run it in scrims who doesn't already go full-muuki in scrims because they don't want to lose scrim partners.
[quote]and ya, the airblast penalty, switch speed shit all that shit is true. full time pyro isnt good, u can read 1000 posts and ask 100000 invite players and they would say da same shit, no one thinks it is, but it is stupid as in more stupid than the market gardener.[/quote]
The Market Gardener is a joke. You counter market gardener by not moving predictably and hitscan. It's similar to the Dragon's Fury in that if you fuck up with it you are punished extremely hard (since you have to strafe very close to your target, they can predict where you're going to fly, which makes it easy to line up shots).
[quote]and then u actually do die to it, its like dying to a spy its fuckimg stupid. im glad u used that backstab analogy because thats exactly what it feels like.[/quote]
Why didn't you turn around?
Spy isn't banned. If you think the analogy from Dragon's Fury to Spy is accurate, and Spy isn't banned, then doesn't that follow that Dragon's Fury shouldn't be banned? Just like you can easily turn around to prevent a backstab, you can easily not walk into a Pyro and not take damage from Dragon's Fury.
Spy is the least complained about class in 6s by several orders of magnitude (in fact I don't think I've ever heard anyone complain about Spy outside of Diamondback, old Red-Tape Recorder, old Enforcer, and seeing disguises through walls). This is because whenever you get killed by a Spy it's obviously your fault.
[quote=eddie_calderon]why are neets theorycrafting pyro skill ceiling lmao if u think pyro has any depth beyond learning how to wave your mouse in a 90 degree arc vageuly near other entities in the server while occasionally pressing mouse2 to shoot rockets back at people that do 130% damage then idk what to tell you. it was a joke of a concept in 2007 and its even moreso now.[/quote]
First question: who are you?
Second and third questions: why do you think your opinion holds any weight, or that the fact that you endorse a particular side matters?
Fourth question: why did you click on this thread if you didn't want to read discussions about 6s class balance?
I like when people talks a lot but don't act
I like when people talks a lot but don't act
This thread has a lot of words. I think I'd be more inclined to read it if you could condense your stance on the current state of pyro to a single paragraph. Thank you.
This thread has a lot of words. I think I'd be more inclined to read it if you could condense your stance on the current state of pyro to a single paragraph. Thank you.
morwannegThis thread has a lot of words. I think I'd be more inclined to read it if you could condense your stance on the current state of pyro to a single paragraph. Thank you.
I did you one better.
https://i.imgur.com/Dro2s3m.png
[quote=morwanneg]This thread has a lot of words. I think I'd be more inclined to read it if you could condense your stance on the current state of pyro to a single paragraph. Thank you.[/quote]
I did you one better.
[img]https://i.imgur.com/Dro2s3m.png[/img]
eddie_calderonwhy are neets theorycrafting pyro skill ceiling lmao if u think pyro has any depth beyond learning how to wave your mouse in a 90 degree arc vageuly near other entities in the server while occasionally pressing mouse2 to shoot rockets back at people that do 130% damage then idk what to tell you. it was a joke of a concept in 2007 and its even moreso now.
thats the same exact shit im saying mongo theres no theory crafting im just explaining why its like that. im saying it was easy before and now even easier so the pyro mains are even further from being good at the game on classes that aren't easy.
i cant blame u for not reading its just fun to focus on 1 thing for a little while, but this is one of those awful balance threads which turn like this all the time like those politics thread just dont even look at it lol
morwannegThis thread has a lot of words. I think I'd be more inclined to read it if you could condense your stance on the current state of pyro to a single paragraph. Thank you.
try condensing that with the same level of depth. u can see even tho i wrote all that and covered all that, she STILL managed to make a post, two this time cause i guess she hit some kind of limit i wasnt sure existed and probably has the world record for longest thing on TFTV that isnt spam atm, i'm yet to read btw.
idk why theyre so long cause yeah, u probably think pyro and TF2 are just mad simple and they are but this is how i just type about everything i think. if u go through my posts anything that isnt a shitpost is long about everything. if u read my hypebeast comments too i have even longer posts about supreme and off-white.
its an accident theyre so long idk they always are i just say 'wow i typed all that?' but u gotta think if i said these instead of typed them it would be like 2 mins and not some daunting block of text
[quote=eddie_calderon]why are neets theorycrafting pyro skill ceiling lmao if u think pyro has any depth beyond learning how to wave your mouse in a 90 degree arc vageuly near other entities in the server while occasionally pressing mouse2 to shoot rockets back at people that do 130% damage then idk what to tell you. it was a joke of a concept in 2007 and its even moreso now.[/quote]
thats the same exact shit im saying mongo theres no theory crafting im just explaining why its like that. im saying it was easy before and now even easier so the pyro mains are even further from being good at the game on classes that aren't easy.
i cant blame u for not reading its just fun to focus on 1 thing for a little while, but this is one of those awful balance threads which turn like this all the time like those politics thread just dont even look at it lol
[quote=morwanneg]This thread has a lot of words. I think I'd be more inclined to read it if you could condense your stance on the current state of pyro to a single paragraph. Thank you.[/quote]
try condensing that with the same level of depth. u can see even tho i wrote all that and covered all that, she STILL managed to make a post, two this time cause i guess she hit some kind of limit i wasnt sure existed and probably has the world record for longest thing on TFTV that isnt spam atm, i'm yet to read btw.
idk why theyre so long cause yeah, u probably think pyro and TF2 are just mad simple and they are but this is how i just type about everything i think. if u go through my posts anything that isnt a shitpost is long about everything. if u read my hypebeast comments too i have even longer posts about supreme and off-white.
its an accident theyre so long idk they always are i just say 'wow i typed all that?' but u gotta think if i said these instead of typed them it would be like 2 mins and not some daunting block of text