this is the new nerf pyro thread

This entire thread is pretty sad. Instead of dissing Sigafoo for spending $1k of his own money on supporting a game mode he enjoys instead of shoving it at a game mode he doesn't play, why don't you donate $1k of your own money to 6s? I don't understand, if you don't enjoy Prolander actually say why instead of just [waaah stop giving money to thing I don't like]. Let the man spend his money how he wants and if you have an actual reason to dislike Prolander other than the fact that it's popular to dislike that's fine, but it seems to me that most of you are just jumping on the bandwagon to hate Sigafoo and his game mode. You act like he's somehow obligated to support 6s and 6s only just because he has money to throw into a competitive format.

not only has plenty of feedback about why people don't like his mode been posted in this thread, he's already received that feedback a hundred times already.
he's not obligated to do anything with his money, it's his money. but the question is if he really doesn't want this 1000 dollars and he wants to put it into making tf2 more popular this is the worst way to do it

because im 17

Olgas paycheck?

Can you link to this feedback or give me a paraphrased version of it?

About 10 months ago someone said something similar in a thread someone else created about my league.

To which I responded about the complaints I did hear and adapt from. And pressed for more information about these "many big issues" I'm ignoring. Pretty much the response was something along the lines of just make it sixes.

@sigafoo this is a response from Pete on page two that responds to your claim that the class composition of 7s is never the same. Not entirely feedback I guess but you didn’t respond to it

Also idk how you can be so ignorant as to not read this thread and to instead tell us to paraphrase this shit for you.

I have ready every single post in this thread, but there aren't any real statements about how to make prolander better.

Like that statement you linked, isn't about how to make prolander better, but how prolander might suffer like sixes does when it comes to a stale class meta, if a more defined meta happens.

Pretty much a majority of statements in this thread are either insults at me, or prolander. Or they're statements comparing sixes and prolander.

Which doesn't answer the question of "Can you link to this feedback or give me a paraphrased version of it?"

I'm looking for what can actively be changed to make it better. Those are opinions I definitely am curious to read about. As I stated in this post earlier

I'm very open to hearing on ways in which you could improve Prolander, but still keep class viability.

This is the part that angers people, because 6s players are content that has already been accomplished, myself included. You are adamant that you should be leading a revolution to change and improve TF2 by disregarding core fundamentals that we as a community playtested long ago, and are still changing to this day.

But even that alone would have been fine. The problem is that you have forced your idea to the forefront by offering substantial prize pools. It's a complete show of ignorance and ill-respect to what the majority has worked on the last 10 years. 10 years man. If you really wanted to support TF2's comp scene, you would be putting money towards 6s itself, even if you don't agree with it. It has prize pools and consistent LAN tournaments which I found fucking exhilarating to watch on stage. Instead it seems like you deem all of that not good enough, and wish to see your own vision for the game flourish instead. I strongly believe your gamemode existing is in direct opposition to 6s.

In the end we can't tell you what to do with your money, but nobody wants to give you feedback on how to improve your idea because it's YOUR idea. None of us have an existential problem with 6s that is somehow being solved by your vision.

There is no evidence that your league isn't being abused for the money. I have seen nobody scrimming your format. Teams show up to play and that's it. People say it's a Froyo paycheck for a reason.

If you really believed in your idea, you should have kept it completely free. In fact you still could. Keep it free for a couple seasons with no prize pools. You'd get much less flak from the 6s community, real feedback as to whether people would take time out their evenings/comp schedule/whatever to play it, and whether it truly does have any merit.

I'd continue to play 6s for free as long as I still enjoy it, and I'd pay out my pocket to go play at LAN for potentially nothing, same way the Australians did. That love and care has been crafted through 10 years of hard work from insane members in this community. What you're trying to emulate is just not possible this late down the line. For those reasons, what you're doing seems both arrogant and self-serving.

If the player number was 6 instead of 7, the league would probably be much better. I dont think the 7th player really adds much and just makes it a bit messier. What would be really sick is if you unbanned some weapons for experiementation (e.g. solemn vow, experiment with banning crossbow etc.). That really would be a great service to the community.

Had a chuckle at this one, we're still at best a Semi-Professional scene with nothing to offer anyone looking to become a pro-gamer. I am sure a few thousand dollars from Sigafoo will change this(!).

With that said I agree in the general consensus of your message but then again I don't know what Sigafoo's aims are with this gamemode. When it first appeared it seemed experimental and all the evidence I saw was it would be a failure, I am all for experiments and using money to back it but got to be a point where you accept either your concept is flawed or your approach is flawed. Depending on Sigafoo's objectives is the only way you can measure success of this competition, regardless of if you like it on a personal level or if it keeps Lil' Gray fed for another month.

With that said on the whole this whole project looks from an outside perspective to be rather impact-less and divisional, which I do not support, though if I get a cat I might need to feed it and sign up. One issue I think it has it suffers from the stigma of being "Sigafoo's little project" - Rather than a unified gamemode with many, many supporters. Not involving major community leagues (whatever the reasoning given) is a mistake for sure, trying to compete with existing gamemodes, also a mistake.

Real measure of success to a gamemode or a league is, if the main driver of it disappears will it continue? I don't think so. And this isn't even my opinion, it's just a fact, I personally think 7v7 is interesting enough gameplay wise to a point I'd enjoy it and I love freshness of competitive competition but if nobody wants to play it aside for the money and barely anyone wants to watch it, then it's not going to work.

Idk it's still probably better than Highlander

Hear me out on this one. Just listen for 5 fucking seconds.

HOW ABOUT YOU MAKE IT 6V6 WITH THE PROLANDER RULESET YOU MORON.

Like you say that your fine with it being ANY NUMBER OF PLAYERS as long as its PROLANDER, yet you can’t get it through your thick fucking skull that we just want it to be 6V6 NOT 7V7.

WE WOULD BE FINE WITH THIS SHIT IF IT WAS 6V6, BUT YOUR SO HELL-BENT ON MAKING IT 7 FOR NO REASON. USE YOUR DAMN HEAD ON THIS ONE.

Make it 6 players with your fucking batshit crazy rules. I don’t personally care about whatever you do as long as it is 6 players.

You're not going to win people over when half of your energy is spent trying to beat them down unnecessarily.

sigafoo cant be won over, so why try it?
the point of an argument or a discussion is to make a person leave with newfound knowledge and experiences that will teach them new information that they carry to the future, not fully convert them to your side. you see this in all types of discussions: people talk to eachother on opposing views, then hopefully leave respecting eachother more, and with extra knowledge about how their opponent thinks. going into an argument hoping to win someone over is pointless and if u do so, you will gain nothing, and neither will your opponent.

i couldve been nicer ur right about that, but i want to teach sigafoo something, we all do. this isnt an excuse for letting my emotions get all riled up, but hey, pathos is a great argumentative tactic.

tldr: you wanna teach someone something, appeal to them somehow and hope they leave knowig a bt more, dont try to convert them or win them over though.

people have been shitty to sigafoo about this 7s thing from day 1

You aren't really arguing, though. All I see in your post before this is personal attacks and calling Sigafoo a moron because he doesn't want to play 6s.

Here's some feed back as someone who has Played all 3 major game modes and a fair degree of other E-Sport titles.

1) Make it 6s like everyone is asking.
2 Scouts, 2 Soldiers, 2 Pyros, 1 Demo, 1 Heavy, 1 NG, 1 Medic, 1 Sniper, 1 Spy. Why 6? Well, most E-Sports to my knowledge you between 4 and 6 people on each team. Our younger bother OW uses 6 and seems to have a certain degree of success with it. Both our Cousins Dota, and CS use 5, but thous are much slower paced games, so i think 6 makes the most sense.

2) Use the Global Whitelist.
The Pick/Ban mechanic is novel, but it usually ends with the same 4-5 items getting removed anyway, or in the case of Froyo; the team going afk and coming back when its over (this is obviously hyperboli)... One could argue that the same items getting b& every game is a good thing (like with Dota Heroes) because it allows us to see what people perverse as truly OP. But, unlike with Dota, The TF2 Devs are lazy/understaffed and don't rework items particularly often (once every 2-3 years or so by the looks of it...) unlike with Dota, OW, hell; even CS by this point where there are changes constantly happening. So until we get constant, reliable updates, I think the Global Whitelist is the way to go.

3) The map selection.
I think you [sigafoo] should use a mix in equal parts of 5cp, Koth, and Spotwatch (this is the part where i get downfragged). Why 5cp? Well, i'm not going to go into to much detail about that one because D'uh... But why the other 2? Well it preserves the initial intention of "experimentation" as these modes have not been tried in earnest since 2008 when the majority of them didn't even exist yet, and most weapons where b&/didn't exist either. Oh. Excuse me... I remember a Payload map was tried once, but one of the teams threw the match so they didn't have to play anymore... Real mature... In all seriousness, the real reason this should be look at these maps is because the TF2 Devs seem really keen on pushing them. Just look at the in-game Ranked System, they have maps like gorge and badwater in there (let's just all agree to ignore the ctf maps...) So we might as well experiment again for the first time in 8 years...

Personally, I could see a map pool like Process, Blands, Gully, viaduct, Ashville, Bagel, Badwater, Gorge, pl_tapline working out just fine. Notice how all of thous maps have been at some point played in 6s, other then Badwater and Gorge.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZU8VyfzjsIw&t=0s

I don't really mean it in that sense. I don't think the scene will grow much more at this stage regardless, but if you're gonna spend money to support comp TF2, why not the main format that's currently being played? At the very least you'll look great in the community, and it will give incentive for players to put on great matches that make vets want to keep playing. I'm more in favor of focusing on player retention rather than growth anyhow, but that's another topic.

I think gorge has been tested in 6's in the distant past, and nobody likes badwater not even highlander players and the problems the map has aren't really remedied by having 6 players.

Out of curiosity, what was wrong wit it? If i recall the map was made explicitly by Valve with comp in mind back in 2010.

The most popular gamemode in TF2 is Capture the Flag, where's the 2fort league at Sigafoo.

Hi sigafoo, I wanted to give my input as a spectator. While I don't play competitive TF2, I've watched HL, RGL, and 6s, and I find both competitive TF2 and the community very interesting. I did attempt to get into competitive TF2 a long time ago, however; one of my friends introduced me to Highlander, where I decided to try out engineer and stumbled upon videos of your gameplay, which I enjoyed. Eventually, though, I realized that what I liked about TF2 compared to other games was the fast-paced, DM-heavy style, which I couldn't play as engineer, so I looked into 6s scout instead.

That brings me to my opinion on what makes TF2 fun to watch: the very same fast-paced game with mechanical skill that I liked to play. Can a roamer bomb in and get a clean shot on the medic with an airshot to finish them off? Can a scout finish off the weakened enemy team after most of their team is dead? These thoughts make the game interesting to spectate, especially with an offensive team, or when much is on the line like the Australians in the Insomnia series.

I admire the work you're putting into RGL by dropping your own money into it and casting the matches, but personally, I don't like watching it. With 14 players, it's just too difficult for one individual player to shine (or even kept track of in the first place). There's less full wipes, more pyros and engis (which I find uninteresting to watch), and (while this isn't a problem with the gamemode itself) no high stakes or rivalries.

I think the pick/ban format is a hot topic, and what I'm thinking is that it can be interesting to leave powerful weapons in specifically to see how the teams take advantage of it. I'm assuming your view is similar, because there aren't enough bans to get rid of particularly powerful unlocks (Bonk, Natascha, Wrangler, etc.), but please correct me if I'm wrong. However, when these powerful items are ones that encourage stalemates rather than aggression, taking advantage of it just makes the game unfun to watch.

All of that said, I don't think it's wrong that you've put some money into your league. It's unlikely that someone has stopped playing 6s or HL because of 7v7, unless they didn't enjoy 6s/HL in the first place, so I don't think it's fragmenting the community compared to the ESEA vs CEVO fiasco. But I think there's lots of improvement to be desired for RGL to be spectator-friendly, and I don't think it's much of a strategic gamemode.

What exactly are you looking for then? People have given you plenty of feedback to work with throughout the past three threads you've made amidst the hate and generic shitposts.

They've offered player-count suggestions and they've also offered suggestions about the pick/ban phase. What is the point of you even looking for criticism and advice if you're literally only looking for shit that makes the gamemode better for specifically you personally? If you want an echo chamber for your own ideas why don't you just set up another steam account and talk back and forth to yourself until you've found some sort of satisfaction?

Also, for the record, none of the quotes or percentages you've used hold any merit to the success of your gamemode whatsoever. None of us even know who these players are, and you even featured a response from someone who literally hasn't played another competitive format. This leads me to believe that far fewer people actually like the gamemode than what you're advertising if you're desperate enough to pick responses from people who literally don't know enough to even make the choice of liking it more than 6s & HL or not (which, by the way, appears to be the intent of showing these quotes at all).

You're free to prove me wrong about this though and post the entirety of the responses. Surely you don't think posting opinions on a gamemode is compromising any sort of privacy right? There should be no issue.

With all of this being said, if you really want to find out just how much people enjoy your gamemode on its own, take the money out of it, and we can truly see where it stands. This doesn't involve reducing the player numbers or changing the pick/ban list, so I'd say you've got more incentive to listen to this suggestion over the ones you've completely disregarded that "ruin" the supposed integrity of prolander.

i'm just throwin it out there 6v6 pick/ban could be kinda fun. i'd play it.

i dont think anyone has mentioned this yet but in the eu cup all divisions had the same prizepool and i think thats really really dumb, why would anyone put any effort into being the best if johnny 5 hours in the game is receiving the same prize as you?

I agree with others that there's a way to promote a new game mode without having to put down others. You don't see 6s tournaments announcing how shitty 4s is on their opening post.

Even if that was okay, you should read the room and realize it starts us out on a bit of a hostile relationship.

cool :D