Let's face it, some youtubers/streamers like ZestyJesus are biased against comp from their personal experiences against players or by the Meet your Match update failing to provide for both communities at launch.
Because of this, these content creators will advocate for their opinions, never challenged against btw, in their videos and tf2 viewers slop it up without a second thought.
Which results in 6s looked down upon, often making casual players look more toxic than the game's comp community which is rare, and 6s players just don't care to bother with them - which means less players would want to join in the first place, and so the community very slowly dies out
I think we should have a public formal discussion video to challenge the casual communities ideas that the comp community universally disagree, or show the understanding of what the respective league's decision is (e.g. certain weapon bans, even basic stuff like class bans, etc.)
Just have team Zesty vs team DrHappiness debate in a discord or something idk
Let's face it, some youtubers/streamers like ZestyJesus are biased against comp from their personal experiences against players or by the Meet your Match update failing to provide for both communities at launch.
Because of this, these content creators will advocate for their opinions, never challenged against btw, in their videos and tf2 viewers slop it up without a second thought.
Which results in 6s looked down upon, often making casual players look more toxic than the game's comp community which is rare, and 6s players just don't care to bother with them - which means less players would want to join in the first place, and so the community very slowly dies out
I think we should have a public formal discussion video to challenge the casual communities ideas that the comp community universally disagree, or show the understanding of what the respective league's decision is (e.g. certain weapon bans, even basic stuff like class bans, etc.)
Just have team Zesty vs team DrHappiness debate in a discord or something idk
This, I also feel there needs to be a lot more presence from the competitive community outside their own circle and into the tf2ber space or more general circles in tf2.
This, I also feel there needs to be a lot more presence from the competitive community outside their own circle and into the tf2ber space or more general circles in tf2.
idk how much of a difference you can make when b4nny has the largest competitive tf2 channel and most of his more popular moments are just him raging at his teammates in pugs
idk how much of a difference you can make when b4nny has the largest competitive tf2 channel and most of his more popular moments are just him raging at his teammates in pugs
i feel like the biggest hurdle we need to overcome for this "discussion" is that the reality is 6s might as well be a different video game from tf2. it takes everything good about tf2 (movement, high risk/high reward guns) and leaves everything that is not necessary for a competitive environment (huge team sizes, maps not conducive to coordinated play, silly/overpowered weapons)
the identity of 6s vs the identity of tf2 to people who have either not played 6s or not played tf2 in general are so vastly different that trying to get a pubber into 6s is like trying to get someone into TF2 for the first time. either they like what's on offer by 6s or they are completely content with their silly mode (which there's nothing wrong with enjoying, i like to pub from time to time too)
its also hard to convince a pubber to want to play if they main an offclass, especially stuff like pyro or engie that have practically no transferable skills to the 6s classes. why would i learn a whole new class i don't even like to play competitive?
i had to explain to a group of friends that in 6s, the classes are hardly even classes anymore. they're more like weapons in the buy menu in CS. you just can't get away in CS with running a P90 every game at the high level, but at the low level you might, and even at the high level the P90 might have some uses on some particular rounds, but not enough to main all your time into practicing it
i feel like the biggest hurdle we need to overcome for this "discussion" is that the reality is 6s might as well be a different video game from tf2. it takes everything good about tf2 (movement, high risk/high reward guns) and leaves everything that is not necessary for a competitive environment (huge team sizes, maps not conducive to coordinated play, silly/overpowered weapons)
the identity of 6s vs the identity of tf2 to people who have either not played 6s or not played tf2 in general are so vastly different that trying to get a pubber into 6s is like trying to get someone into TF2 for the first time. either they like what's on offer by 6s or they are completely content with their silly mode (which there's nothing wrong with enjoying, i like to pub from time to time too)
its also hard to convince a pubber to want to play if they main an offclass, especially stuff like pyro or engie that have practically no transferable skills to the 6s classes. why would i learn a whole new class i don't even like to play competitive?
i had to explain to a group of friends that in 6s, the classes are hardly even classes anymore. they're more like weapons in the buy menu in CS. you just can't get away in CS with running a P90 every game at the high level, but at the low level you might, and even at the high level the P90 might have some uses on some particular rounds, but not enough to main all your time into practicing it
Seinfeldi feel like the biggest hurdle ...
That's fine, I'm not trying to sell the idea of 6s to all pubbers - just defending some outrageous claims they get from other people that don't know as much
[quote=Seinfeld]i feel like the biggest hurdle ...[/quote]
That's fine, I'm not trying to sell the idea of 6s to all pubbers - just defending some outrageous claims they get from other people that don't know as much
I think generally the 6s community is bad at articulating itself to casual players because most of the really insane conspiracy-esque takes about how "big comp" is ruining tf2 are borne out multiple cases of complete misunderstanding building on top of each other.
I do think the easiest way to fix this is just more competitive players talking about competitive tf2 because on the face of it, if you know what you're talking about then it's really simple to explain that this class limit is this way because of x, or this is a strategy that players will do because of y
In my own comments section i see a ton of pub babble or people who are belligerent at the mere idea of any restrictions being put in place to begin with, but I also see a fair share of people who have had their minds changed, want to try playing 6s, or just appreciated the new perspective on things without expressing interest in playing
Also,
Rahmedoften making casual players look more toxic than the game's comp community which is rare
From what i understand from other games this isn't that rare at all, and often times casual players feel threatened when people talk about game & strategy optimization as though its being imposed on them when it absolutely isn't
I think generally the 6s community is bad at articulating itself to casual players because most of the really insane conspiracy-esque takes about how "big comp" is ruining tf2 are borne out multiple cases of complete misunderstanding building on top of each other.
I do think the easiest way to fix this is just more competitive players talking about competitive tf2 because on the face of it, if you know what you're talking about then it's really simple to explain that this class limit is this way because of x, or this is a strategy that players will do because of y
In my own comments section i see a ton of pub babble or people who are belligerent at the mere idea of any restrictions being put in place to begin with, but I also see a fair share of people who have had their minds changed, want to try playing 6s, or just appreciated the new perspective on things without expressing interest in playing
Also,
[quote=Rahmed]often making casual players look more toxic than the game's comp community which is rare[/quote]
From what i understand from other games this isn't that rare at all, and often times casual players feel threatened when people talk about game & strategy optimization as though its being imposed on them when it absolutely isn't
Was a bit surprised to see my name mentioned here, lmao. But in all honesty, I think what Wild_Rumpus said is pretty much where I stand on the whole thing. The key reason that this negative sentiment has festered for so long is that there have been very few attempts to actually communicate to a casual audience as to why we made the rules the way that they are and dispelling some of those myths that have been developing over time. I remember WoolenSleevelet did a lengthy video that went over each of the weapon bans and provided the justifications as to why they were banned, and while he did a great job ensuring that his information is correct it ultimately did little to sway the minds of people who already were convinced that competitive 'killed' the game.
Honestly, Wild_Rumpus has been doing a really good job at explaining various aspects of competitive play and to challenge some of those pubber nonsense that we see whilst making clear the number of challenges and issues with competitive play. If we had more people doing that and making genuine attempts at showcasing competitive play and explaining it, then perhaps we might see sentiment change.
I think that any 'debate' around this could really go one of two ways, it could be a great way of directly challenging these talking points to the audience that most needs to hear it. However, I have seen a number of YouTubers try to explain that competitive isn't bad or is in fact a positive thing for the game and get shut down HARD, so I don't know that the most vocal 'anti-competitive' names in the space will be willing to have an authentic and productive discussion here. If I'm proven wrong and those creators would actually be interested, I wouldn't mind having a conversation but I'm sure there are others that could do a better job than I.
Was a bit surprised to see my name mentioned here, lmao. But in all honesty, I think what Wild_Rumpus said is pretty much where I stand on the whole thing. The key reason that this negative sentiment has festered for so long is that there have been very few attempts to actually communicate to a casual audience as to why we made the rules the way that they are and dispelling some of those myths that have been developing over time. I remember WoolenSleevelet did a lengthy video that went over each of the weapon bans and provided the justifications as to why they were banned, and while he did a great job ensuring that his information is correct it ultimately did little to sway the minds of people who already were convinced that competitive 'killed' the game.
Honestly, Wild_Rumpus has been doing a really good job at explaining various aspects of competitive play and to challenge some of those pubber nonsense that we see whilst making clear the number of challenges and issues with competitive play. If we had more people doing that and making genuine attempts at showcasing competitive play and explaining it, then perhaps we might see sentiment change.
I think that any 'debate' around this could really go one of two ways, it could be a great way of directly challenging these talking points to the audience that most needs to hear it. However, I have seen a number of YouTubers try to explain that competitive isn't bad or is in fact a positive thing for the game and get shut down HARD, so I don't know that the most vocal 'anti-competitive' names in the space will be willing to have an authentic and productive discussion here. If I'm proven wrong and those creators would actually be interested, I wouldn't mind having a conversation but I'm sure there are others that could do a better job than I.
The casual side of video games calls competitive players sweaty, toxic try-hards and insist they ruin every game. The competitive side of video game calls casuals low-skilled whiners who need to get good or quit the game. I can't think of a game whose casual and competitive side co-exist. Even for small communities where you could reasonably know all the regulars names like Left4Dead, it's still an awful battle of "us vs. them". Why would TF2 be different?
The casual side of video games calls competitive players sweaty, toxic try-hards and insist they ruin every game. The competitive side of video game calls casuals low-skilled whiners who need to get good or quit the game. I can't think of a game whose casual and competitive side co-exist. Even for small communities where you could reasonably know all the regulars names like Left4Dead, it's still an awful battle of "us vs. them". Why would TF2 be different?
Game needs an actual ranked system like faceit with a playable but laxed ruleset where you can just press role queue and be put in an elo based match. As it stands you still need 500 hours to play even the most accessible games on tf2center.
RGL class restrictions with only say wrangler, vacc, milk, jarate and short circuit banned, normal map pool, you can add in some extra bans at a certain elo threshold
New players can experiment with offclasses and whatever their heart desires, higher elo games will naturally conform to league play meta.
Let people play sixes and earn a shiny rank when they have like 50 hours instead of cursing them to play pubs until they either get bored and quit or become big comp pilled
Game needs an actual ranked system like faceit with a playable but laxed ruleset where you can just press role queue and be put in an elo based match. As it stands you still need 500 hours to play even the most accessible games on tf2center.
RGL class restrictions with only say wrangler, vacc, milk, jarate and short circuit banned, normal map pool, you can add in some extra bans at a certain elo threshold
New players can experiment with offclasses and whatever their heart desires, higher elo games will naturally conform to league play meta.
Let people play sixes and earn a shiny rank when they have like 50 hours instead of cursing them to play pubs until they either get bored and quit or become big comp pilled
I love reading r/tf2 threads about competitive play and one of the big topics is weapon bans. From what i've seen, once there's been a back and forth on the matter, most pubbers don't have much of an issue with weapon bans themselves, but using them to enforce the cookie cutter class line up. Their vision for competitive tf2 is a game where people constantly switch classes and weapons to counterpick each other for 30 minutes, which is the last thing the current community wants. To some extent, this is just a difference in taste, but I also think that the way you see "what tf2 is about" changes as you get better at it. casuals tend to view tf2 as a big game of RPS, whereas at high skill levels those class/counter class relationships usually seem much softer, and that how your team plays is often more important than what your team consists of. in competitive play, the best way to deal with a heavy is focus fire, but in pubs you switch to spy or sniper.
I'm not sure of how to solve this aspect of the divide, but I think having more high quality class tutorials aimed at pubbers would help raise the overall skill level of those who are at least somewhat interested in playing the game to get better at it. There are tons of bad scout guides out there in particular that say double jumping vs soldiers is bad and that if you aren't at point blank you should use the pistol.
I love reading r/tf2 threads about competitive play and one of the big topics is weapon bans. From what i've seen, once there's been a back and forth on the matter, most pubbers don't have much of an issue with weapon bans themselves, but using them to enforce the cookie cutter class line up. Their vision for competitive tf2 is a game where people constantly switch classes and weapons to counterpick each other for 30 minutes, which is the last thing the current community wants. To some extent, this is just a difference in taste, but I also think that the way you see "what tf2 is about" changes as you get better at it. casuals tend to view tf2 as a big game of RPS, whereas at high skill levels those class/counter class relationships usually seem much softer, and that how your team plays is often more important than what your team consists of. in competitive play, the best way to deal with a heavy is focus fire, but in pubs you switch to spy or sniper.
I'm not sure of how to solve this aspect of the divide, but I think having more high quality class tutorials aimed at pubbers would help raise the overall skill level of those who are at least somewhat interested in playing the game to get better at it. There are tons of bad scout guides out there in particular that say double jumping vs soldiers is bad and that if you aren't at point blank you should use the pistol.
A lot of pubbers seem to think that the meet your match update was a result of Valve listening to competitive feedback, as opposed them ignoring everything and releasing the beta version of their comp mode with zero changes. I don't think any of the weapon balance changes were things the community was clamoring for (what were they smoking when they changed the bison?), neither was casual mode. We hated that shit as well.
A lot of pubbers seem to think that the meet your match update was a result of Valve listening to competitive feedback, as opposed them ignoring everything and releasing the beta version of their comp mode with zero changes. I don't think any of the weapon balance changes were things the community was clamoring for (what were they smoking when they changed the bison?), neither was casual mode. We hated that shit as well.
RahmedWhich results in 6s looked down upon, often making casual players look more toxic than the game's comp community which is rare
This is pretty common tbh (rumpus mentioned this also), I think pokemon might be the biggest offender here. That game doesn't even balance within a generation like 99% of the time and very rarely retroactively nerfs things, and yet casuals roll up to the ladder and lose with x broken mon and insist that it's therefore not broken (the reason they lost is cause they also have an eevolution and a starter mon on their team).
Like capnfapn said though I don't think most people's positions are immutable, just mostly reactionary and probably not 100% serious. If you do CIA style torture and force tf2 casuals to try to push into last point against double wrangler double rescue ranger, and analogously if you force pokemon casuals to play into some giga ass shadow tag full stall team, both would probably emerge as Scarred but Changed Individuals.
Anyway while recent trends might have provoked more animosity towards comp I'd be pretty surprised if it actually affected player numbers in any meaningful way. Kind of circles back to the point that oftentimes the people that bitch and moan the loudest are the ones who were never going to try competitive anyway (and this goes for any game). It's basically identical to prolander/NR6's to me; I don't think that the people who say they hate the "current comp meta" are lying per se (prolander in particular has some very intense stans I've found), but the ones who will actually play an alternative comp format that purportedly resolves those issues and stick with it for more than 1 season are an insanely vocal but ultimately small minority.
[quote=Rahmed]
Which results in 6s looked down upon, often making casual players look more toxic than the game's comp community [b]which is rare[/b][/quote]
This is pretty common tbh (rumpus mentioned this also), I think pokemon might be the biggest offender here. That game doesn't even balance within a generation like 99% of the time and very rarely retroactively nerfs things, and yet casuals roll up to the ladder and lose with x broken mon and insist that it's therefore not broken (the reason they lost is cause they also have an eevolution and a starter mon on their team).
Like capnfapn said though I don't think most people's positions are immutable, just mostly reactionary and probably not 100% serious. If you do CIA style torture and force tf2 casuals to try to push into last point against double wrangler double rescue ranger, and analogously if you force pokemon casuals to play into some giga ass shadow tag full stall team, both would probably emerge as Scarred but Changed Individuals.
Anyway while recent trends might have provoked more animosity towards comp I'd be pretty surprised if it actually affected player numbers in any meaningful way. Kind of circles back to the point that oftentimes the people that bitch and moan the loudest are the ones who were never going to try competitive anyway (and this goes for any game). It's basically identical to prolander/NR6's to me; I don't think that the people who say they hate the "current comp meta" are lying per se (prolander in particular has some very intense stans I've found), but the ones who will actually play an alternative comp format that purportedly resolves those issues and stick with it for more than 1 season are an insanely vocal but ultimately small minority.
My bad guys, maybe casual gamers being more toxic than comp players are more common than I thought
Also just confirmed ZestyJesus is willing to debate, DrHappiness is probably gonna do it if he finds the time
Anyone wanna join in? My discord is: rahmed
My bad guys, maybe casual gamers being more toxic than comp players are more common than I thought
Also just confirmed ZestyJesus is willing to debate, DrHappiness is probably gonna do it if he finds the time
Anyone wanna join in? My discord is: rahmed
RahmedAlso just confirmed ZestyJesus is willing to debate, DrHappiness is probably gonna do it if he finds the time
Anyone wanna join in? My discord is: rahmed
I will say though that I think framing it as a debate is bad, it just further perpetrates the "us vs. them" mentality which I think is pretty unhealthy. Calling it a discussion is maybe more productive. A lot of people see competitive players as this inhuman bogeyman when in reality there is significant overlap and most competitive players do a ton of pubbing.
For those unfamiliar here is basically the summed up version of Zesty Jesus's viewpoint on comp: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXzeUw3nLHE&t=102s (I think this is most up to date, correct me if I'm wrong).
I actually think the second half is something a lot of ppl here would agree with, which is essentially that comp and pubs are completely different. He says that you can't balance for comp without massively changing casual; I think I agree with this in sentiment only if you're trying to balance comp with the explicit goal of making all unlocks/classes full time viable. If you're ok with current meta or minor tweaks though I don't think it shifts things much. Good example is probably razorback nerfs; massive for HL, barely changes casual in my experience (your ass is NOT getting buffed) and the ways that it did change casual are probably only positive.
The first half is maybe...hyperbolic (competitive is the root of all evil) but if you take it more as "Valve's incompetence in trying to cater to comp has ruined things" then I think it's something people will still disagree with but is certainly defensible. Although I would say not sure how that directly leads to Valve basically letting bots taking over the game for years until people protested, like idk pretty sure the game still needs to be playable in order for them to make money lol.
[quote=Rahmed]
Also just confirmed ZestyJesus is willing to debate, DrHappiness is probably gonna do it if he finds the time
Anyone wanna join in? My discord is: rahmed[/quote]
I will say though that I think framing it as a debate is bad, it just further perpetrates the "us vs. them" mentality which I think is pretty unhealthy. Calling it a discussion is maybe more productive. A lot of people see competitive players as this inhuman bogeyman when in reality there is significant overlap and most competitive players do a ton of pubbing.
For those unfamiliar here is basically the summed up version of Zesty Jesus's viewpoint on comp: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXzeUw3nLHE&t=102s (I think this is most up to date, correct me if I'm wrong).
I actually think the second half is something a lot of ppl here would agree with, which is essentially that comp and pubs are completely different. He says that you can't balance for comp without massively changing casual; I think I agree with this in sentiment only if you're trying to balance comp with the explicit goal of making all unlocks/classes full time viable. If you're ok with current meta or minor tweaks though I don't think it shifts things much. Good example is probably razorback nerfs; massive for HL, barely changes casual in my experience (your ass is NOT getting buffed) and the ways that it did change casual are probably only positive.
The first half is maybe...hyperbolic (competitive is the root of all evil) but if you take it more as "Valve's incompetence in trying to cater to comp has ruined things" then I think it's something people will still disagree with but is certainly defensible. Although I would say not sure how that directly leads to Valve basically letting bots taking over the game for years until people protested, like idk pretty sure the game still needs to be playable in order for them to make money lol.
RahmedMy bad guys, maybe casual gamers being more toxic than comp players are more common than I thought
Also just confirmed ZestyJesus is willing to debate, DrHappiness is probably gonna do it if he finds the time
Anyone wanna join in? My discord is: rahmed
Put me in against Zesty and it wouldn't be close (for me)
[quote=Rahmed]My bad guys, maybe casual gamers being more toxic than comp players are more common than I thought
Also just confirmed ZestyJesus is willing to debate, DrHappiness is probably gonna do it if he finds the time
Anyone wanna join in? My discord is: rahmed[/quote]
Put me in against Zesty and it wouldn't be close (for me)
capnnofapnI love reading r/tf2 threads about competitive play and one of the big topics is weapon bans. ...Their vision for competitive tf2 is a game where people constantly switch classes and weapons to counterpick each other for 30 minutes, which is the last thing the current community wants.
I dont play overwatch anymore, but sometimes I still skim the overwatch (think r/tf2) / overwatch university subreddit (think r/truetf2 except alive and with a ranking system) and the singular biggest current complaint is about tanks being rock paper scissors and people not wanting to play that game. People want to play their main and have them viable, even at a small disadvantage just not at the current massive disadvantages they see.
There is decent insight and self awareness where the players actually acknowledge that it's necessary to either have incredibly weak or strong tanks. They either are weak and do nothing and noone plays them, making the counter matchups have less impact, or they are strong and do stuff and therefore the counters are also exaggerated.
I guarantee if tf2 was the same rock, paper, scissors, there would be the same sentiment. It's a known thing that redditors don't know what they want, and this is a prime example.
I'm actually a huge advocate of offclasses, and I really don't think they are used correctly, especially in NA. Not only do american teams NOT offclass on last by default (see how often they have scouts on last during last LAN), but no region really uses a class that is strong based on the point of the map. Personally I think the usage of pyros during ubers and heavies for post ubers is not utilised nearly as much as it should be for it being such a strong strategy on multiple points of different maps.
Instead of forcing someone to play pyro to counter soldier, and then another guy to run heavy to counter the pyro, then another to run sniper to counter the heavy, they should use those classes to properly play according to the maps aswell as what the enemy is playing and they would be able to play their mains. Or just play highlander.
[quote=capnnofapn]I love reading r/tf2 threads about competitive play and one of the big topics is weapon bans. ...Their vision for competitive tf2 is a game where people constantly switch classes and weapons to counterpick each other for 30 minutes, which is the last thing the current community wants.[/quote]
I dont play overwatch anymore, but sometimes I still skim the overwatch (think r/tf2) / overwatch university subreddit (think r/truetf2 except alive and with a ranking system) and the singular biggest current complaint is about tanks being rock paper scissors and people not wanting to play that game. People want to play their main and have them viable, even at a small disadvantage just not at the current massive disadvantages they see.
There is decent insight and self awareness where the players actually acknowledge that it's necessary to either have incredibly weak or strong tanks. They either are weak and do nothing and noone plays them, making the counter matchups have less impact, or they are strong and do stuff and therefore the counters are also exaggerated.
I guarantee if tf2 was the same rock, paper, scissors, there would be the same sentiment. It's a known thing that redditors don't know what they want, and this is a prime example.
I'm actually a huge advocate of offclasses, and I really don't think they are used correctly, especially in NA. Not only do american teams NOT offclass on last by default (see how often they have scouts on last during last LAN), but no region really uses a class that is strong based on the point of the map. Personally I think the usage of pyros during ubers and heavies for post ubers is not utilised nearly as much as it should be for it being such a strong strategy on multiple points of different maps.
Instead of forcing someone to play pyro to counter soldier, and then another guy to run heavy to counter the pyro, then another to run sniper to counter the heavy, they should use those classes to properly play according to the maps aswell as what the enemy is playing and they would be able to play their mains. [b]Or just play highlander.[/b]
springrollsRahmedAlso just confirmed ZestyJesus is willing to debate, DrHappiness is probably gonna do it if he finds the time
Anyone wanna join in? My discord is: rahmed
I will say though that I think framing it as a debate is bad, it just further perpetrates the "us vs. them" mentality which I think is pretty unhealthy. Calling it a discussion is maybe more productive. A lot of people see competitive players as this inhuman bogeyman when in reality there is significant overlap and most competitive players do a ton of pubbing.
.
I feel the same way. Framing it as a debate is also going to immediately put zesty on the defensive. What would be better would be to invite zesty to a newbie mix or something and have him talk about his experience.
[quote=springrolls][quote=Rahmed]
Also just confirmed ZestyJesus is willing to debate, DrHappiness is probably gonna do it if he finds the time
Anyone wanna join in? My discord is: rahmed[/quote]
I will say though that I think framing it as a debate is bad, it just further perpetrates the "us vs. them" mentality which I think is pretty unhealthy. Calling it a discussion is maybe more productive. A lot of people see competitive players as this inhuman bogeyman when in reality there is significant overlap and most competitive players do a ton of pubbing.
.[/quote]
I feel the same way. Framing it as a debate is also going to immediately put zesty on the defensive. What would be better would be to invite zesty to a newbie mix or something and have him talk about his experience.
capnnofapnWhat would be better would be to invite zesty to a newbie mix or something and have him talk about his experience.
sometimes ppl are just incurious and theres nothing u can do
[quote=capnnofapn]What would be better would be to invite zesty to a newbie mix or something and have him talk about his experience.[/quote]
sometimes ppl are just incurious and theres nothing u can do
6v6 is like a completely different game compared to casual TF2, there is almost no overlap, even down to the maps that people play (payload vs 5cp/koth) and the flow of the game. No casual TF2 video watcher/casual TF2 player is ever inspired to try out true competitive 6v6, they might dabble in highlander to try out their favourite class in a semi competitive way, or play valve's """"competitive"""" and get turned off from 6v6 altogether
Comp isn't viewed well by casuals because the pyro pubber, demoknight, and spy main essentially can't play 6v6, on top of that there's dozens of weapon bans and class bans as well as a strict meta and balanced 5cp/koth maps - these are all things that are completely antithesis to normal casual TF2 (12v12, payload-focused, variety of classes and weapons, etc)
On top of that, it requires some dedicated effort to get into 6v6 TF2 compared to other games as Valve's competitive mode is a meme, so a causal player will need to invest time into finding a Discord group, setting up everything to join a PUG, learning how 6v6 plays, and it takes a long while for a truly casual player to transition into a decent 6v6 player that won't frustrate teammates.
There are also no 'jump in and play' newbie 6v6 TF2 options, as TF2Center is usually filled with deceptively good players, other pickup websites are for mid/high+, and Valve competitive isn't standard 6v6. So there are no options outside of actively looking for a Discord newbie PUG group, or joining an NC team and dedicating time each week for scrims/officials
I played many pugs in TF2CC at NC/AM for fun for a few months, and whenever a new player joined or a pubber tried out 6v6, it was 99% of the time a disaster and they would get destroyed, teammates annoyed, and leave after 1 or 2 games never to be seen again (and this is in potentially the most newbie-friendly PUG environment outside of maybe pure Newbie Mixes). This is even more prevalent in mid+ pugs where players will be sure to let you know if you aren't performing to their standards
Most players that get into 6v6 TF2 are usually already competitively minded and they're actively looking for comp TF2-style gameplay to begin with, whereas casual players are simply not playing the game in the same way. They play for fun, they use classes and weapons that aren't even available in 6v6, they play on popular maps that aren't played in 6v6, and for the most part they don't need as much skill to perform well in pubs compared to being even somewhat useful in 6v6
RahmedWhich results in 6s looked down upon, often making casual players look more toxic than the game's comp community which is rare, and 6s players just don't care to bother with them - which means less players would want to join in the first place, and so the community very slowly dies out
There is definitely a feeling in the casual community that competitive TF2 is pretty toxic and not forgiving/welcoming to new players, especially medics trying to get into 6v6. Would love if there were some more events that could introduce players to semi-competitive TF2/6v6 TF2, events like Seasonalander bridge the gap with 9v9 content creators playing Highlander but not sure if similar events exist for 6v6 TF2, and certainly none at the scale of Seasonalander (even though the event is also fairly small)
RahmedMy bad guys, maybe casual gamers being more toxic than comp players are more common than I thought
Also just confirmed ZestyJesus is willing to debate, DrHappiness is probably gonna do it if he finds the time
Anyone wanna join in? My discord is: rahmed
I'm a nobody in the community but would be up to debate as someone who used to play lots of 6v6, played lots of TF2CC pugs with NC/AM and saw new comp players' experiences, and someone who now plays pretty casually with a very casual-focused TF2 youtube audience
6v6 is like a completely different game compared to casual TF2, there is almost no overlap, even down to the maps that people play (payload vs 5cp/koth) and the flow of the game. No casual TF2 video watcher/casual TF2 player is ever inspired to try out true competitive 6v6, they might dabble in highlander to try out their favourite class in a semi competitive way, or play valve's """"competitive"""" and get turned off from 6v6 altogether
Comp isn't viewed well by casuals because the pyro pubber, demoknight, and spy main essentially can't play 6v6, on top of that there's dozens of weapon bans and class bans as well as a strict meta and balanced 5cp/koth maps - these are all things that are completely antithesis to normal casual TF2 (12v12, payload-focused, variety of classes and weapons, etc)
On top of that, it requires some dedicated effort to get into 6v6 TF2 compared to other games as Valve's competitive mode is a meme, so a causal player will need to invest time into finding a Discord group, setting up everything to join a PUG, learning how 6v6 plays, and it takes a long while for a truly casual player to transition into a decent 6v6 player that won't frustrate teammates.
There are also no 'jump in and play' newbie 6v6 TF2 options, as TF2Center is usually filled with deceptively good players, other pickup websites are for mid/high+, and Valve competitive isn't standard 6v6. So there are no options outside of actively looking for a Discord newbie PUG group, or joining an NC team and dedicating time each week for scrims/officials
I played many pugs in TF2CC at NC/AM for fun for a few months, and whenever a new player joined or a pubber tried out 6v6, it was 99% of the time a disaster and they would get destroyed, teammates annoyed, and leave after 1 or 2 games never to be seen again (and this is in potentially the most newbie-friendly PUG environment outside of maybe pure Newbie Mixes). This is even more prevalent in mid+ pugs where players will be sure to let you know if you aren't performing to their standards
Most players that get into 6v6 TF2 are usually already competitively minded and they're actively looking for comp TF2-style gameplay to begin with, whereas casual players are simply not playing the game in the same way. They play for fun, they use classes and weapons that aren't even available in 6v6, they play on popular maps that aren't played in 6v6, and for the most part they don't need as much skill to perform well in pubs compared to being even somewhat useful in 6v6
[quote=Rahmed]Which results in 6s looked down upon, often making casual players look more toxic than the game's comp community which is rare, and 6s players just don't care to bother with them - which means less players would want to join in the first place, and so the community very slowly dies out[/quote]
There is definitely a feeling in the casual community that competitive TF2 is pretty toxic and not forgiving/welcoming to new players, especially medics trying to get into 6v6. Would love if there were some more events that could introduce players to semi-competitive TF2/6v6 TF2, events like Seasonalander bridge the gap with 9v9 content creators playing Highlander but not sure if similar events exist for 6v6 TF2, and certainly none at the scale of Seasonalander (even though the event is also fairly small)
[quote=Rahmed]My bad guys, maybe casual gamers being more toxic than comp players are more common than I thought
Also just confirmed ZestyJesus is willing to debate, DrHappiness is probably gonna do it if he finds the time
Anyone wanna join in? My discord is: rahmed[/quote]
I'm a nobody in the community but would be up to debate as someone who used to play lots of 6v6, played lots of TF2CC pugs with NC/AM and saw new comp players' experiences, and someone who now plays pretty casually with a very casual-focused TF2 youtube audience
zesty jesus sullying Mr mclimes good name is one of the more unforgivable things he's done.
zesty jesus sullying Mr mclimes good name is one of the more unforgivable things he's done.
Looking for a prem player that is smart, articulate, that can be bothered to speak on behalf of all prem/invite players and won't say the n-word
Looking for a prem player that is smart, articulate, that can be bothered to speak on behalf of all prem/invite players and won't say the n-word
idk if a debate is the right idea with this guy, tho i have thought of making a response video or something along the lines to not just his claims but all erroneous claims i've heard from pubber youtubers. debate can be derailed or the optics of it slanted if ur not confident enough (u can make all the right points but without zingers / if u get rattled u will 'lose', especially in the eyes of pubbers who because of all this anti-comp propaganda would be praying on that anyway)
similar to what others have brought up in this thread u have to realise these guys don't like comp THEN come up with the reasons as to why. they dont engage with it and decide it's not for them, they KNOW it's not for them and come up with some BS as to why. people don't have to like or play comp, but i think they should have to acknowledge that we simply love playing the game far more than them. they play the game for the funny voice lines or hats or to sit around taunting, we play it for the actual gameplay (shock!!)
idk if a debate is the right idea with this guy, tho i have thought of making a response video or something along the lines to not just his claims but all erroneous claims i've heard from pubber youtubers. debate can be derailed or the optics of it slanted if ur not confident enough (u can make all the right points but without zingers / if u get rattled u will 'lose', especially in the eyes of pubbers who because of all this anti-comp propaganda would be praying on that anyway)
similar to what others have brought up in this thread u have to realise these guys don't like comp THEN come up with the reasons as to why. they dont engage with it and decide it's not for them, they KNOW it's not for them and come up with some BS as to why. people don't have to like or play comp, but i think they should have to acknowledge that we simply love playing the game far more than them. they play the game for the funny voice lines or hats or to sit around taunting, we play it for the actual gameplay (shock!!)
no one has ever been convinced by a debate which is why debate streamers are such a joke
no one has ever been convinced by a debate which is why debate streamers are such a joke
capnnofapn What would be better would be to invite zesty to a newbie mix or something and have him talk about his experience.
Zesty Jesus has played HL before (actually with some players I know wtf small world), but tbh I don't really see the point of this. Him not liking comp is perfectly fine, nothing inherently wrong with that. He's much more of a video essay/theory youtuber (idk what the proper term is here). More focused on design/philosophy of the game rather than individual experiences I feel like, and the points he makes are not really things that are addressed/resolved from playing a single 6s game.
One example is insinuating that comp players ban things because they are "bad" or afraid of "meta shifting" (when mostly it's just cause u can't fucking push last lol). Not ideal obviously for PR purposes, but idk I feel like this opinion will always exist no matter what happens as long as a ban list exists. I've seen you in the trenches of /r/tf2 so I'm sure you agree with me on this, people will just post shit to post shit (they do get dunked on in the comments though which is nice to see). This sentiment has basically always existed even pre meet your match, and it if it still exists I highly doubt just playing a game resolves this. Shit even if Zesty Jesus were to take a complete 180 on this take I'm sure a lot of people would still have it.
TBH I think the best thing would be to just discuss things and clear up misnomers, like the quickplay stuff people mentioned earlier. I think it's also valuable to make known that comp (like casual) is not a monolith and if anything I think most people, especially in the past, disagreed with b4nny (who I imagine is the one and only face of competitive tf2 for somebody like Zesty Jesus who doesn't really play) regarding things like unlocks. It's unfair to characterize an entire community as "forcing Valve to cater to them" when most ppl (especially back then) were more or less happy to just fuck off and play the game with their whitelists. Although it is also unfair to just put the target on b4nny and those with similar ideas given that Valve just kinda botched everything, it would be like if people thought you were at fault for asking for an accessible entrance when you have a physical disability and the building owners respond by building u a shitty dirt ramp and then blowing up the main staircase.
[quote=capnnofapn] What would be better would be to invite zesty to a newbie mix or something and have him talk about his experience.[/quote]
Zesty Jesus has played HL before (actually with some players I know wtf small world), but tbh I don't really see the point of this. Him not liking comp is perfectly fine, nothing inherently wrong with that. He's much more of a video essay/theory youtuber (idk what the proper term is here). More focused on design/philosophy of the game rather than individual experiences I feel like, and the points he makes are not really things that are addressed/resolved from playing a single 6s game.
One example is insinuating that comp players ban things because they are "bad" or afraid of "meta shifting" (when mostly it's just cause u can't fucking push last lol). Not ideal obviously for PR purposes, but idk I feel like this opinion will always exist no matter what happens as long as a ban list exists. I've seen you in the trenches of /r/tf2 so I'm sure you agree with me on this, [url=https://old.reddit.com/r/tf2/comments/1cs93fn/i_understand_a_few_competitive_bans_but_quite_a/]people will just post shit to post shit[/url] (they do get dunked on in the comments though which is nice to see). This sentiment has basically always existed even pre meet your match, and it if it still exists I highly doubt just playing a game resolves this. Shit even if Zesty Jesus were to take a complete 180 on this take I'm sure a lot of people would still have it.
TBH I think the best thing would be to just discuss things and clear up misnomers, like the quickplay stuff people mentioned earlier. I think it's also valuable to make known that comp (like casual) is not a monolith and if anything I think most people, especially in the past, disagreed with b4nny (who I imagine is the one and only face of competitive tf2 for somebody like Zesty Jesus who doesn't really play) regarding things like unlocks. It's unfair to characterize an entire community as "forcing Valve to cater to them" when most ppl (especially back then) were more or less happy to just fuck off and play the game with their whitelists. Although it is also unfair to just put the target on b4nny and those with similar ideas given that Valve just kinda botched everything, it would be like if people thought you were at fault for asking for an accessible entrance when you have a physical disability and the building owners respond by building u a shitty dirt ramp and then blowing up the main staircase.
I forgot to mention but it's not a debate, it's a discussion to clear things up from this side of the fence.
I agree with mak and springrolls, and these comments are things that casual players would not think of imo so they would treat this whole community the same way they have before blindly.
Everyone here knows how this all turns out but it gets recycled in these threads and casual players are none the wiser.
I forgot to mention but it's not a debate, it's a discussion to clear things up from this side of the fence.
I agree with mak and springrolls, and these comments are things that casual players would not think of imo so they would treat this whole community the same way they have before blindly.
Everyone here knows how this all turns out but it gets recycled in these threads and casual players are none the wiser.
You’re never going to change the mind of a guy (and by extension his fans) who bans players from his server for having competitive medals and throws fits in chat whenever he perceives a player who is better than him as a competitive player.
https://imgur.com/a/jCqqzEc
You’re never going to change the mind of a guy (and by extension his fans) who bans players from his server for having competitive medals and throws fits in chat whenever he perceives a player who is better than him as a competitive player.
https://imgur.com/a/jCqqzEc
Makidk if a debate is the right idea with this guy, tho İ have thought of making a response video or something along the lines to not just his claims but all erroneous claims i've heard from pubber youtubers. debate can be derailed or the optics of it slanted if ur not confident enough (u can make all the right points but without zingers / if u get rattled u eill 'lose', especially in the eyes of pubbers who because of all this anti-comp propaganda would be praying on that anyway)
absolutely agree, this guy couldn't get over j_peg dunking on him on a pub, so this dude is most likely not capable of having a proper conversation about competitive although having some good and bad takes, because he can't handle simple stuff like being killed in a video game where the main objective besides the map is to kill players on the opposite team
having a conversation/debate with someone who is let's say less extremist in opinions could be good
[quote=Mak]idk if a debate is the right idea with this guy, tho İ have thought of making a response video or something along the lines to not just his claims but all erroneous claims i've heard from pubber youtubers. debate can be derailed or the optics of it slanted if ur not confident enough (u can make all the right points but without zingers / if u get rattled u eill 'lose', especially in the eyes of pubbers who because of all this anti-comp propaganda would be praying on that anyway)
[/quote]
absolutely agree, this guy couldn't get over j_peg dunking on him on a pub, so this dude is most likely not capable of having a proper conversation about competitive although having some good and bad takes, because he can't handle simple stuff like being killed in a video game where the main objective besides the map is to kill players on the opposite team
having a conversation/debate with someone who is let's say less extremist in opinions could be good
i mean yeah to expand the context this guy and most of his fanbase are mostly /tf2g/ dwellers. if ur unfamiliar it's basically /r/tf2 but on 4chan, meaning same braindead takes on the game but with more slurs instead of wholesome doge. i like checking in on the thread every few months or when something "big" is happening in tf2 just to see what they have to say. It's a shame because they used to have players that revelled in pub stomping (10+ years ago) now it's full of babies that call u a slur for being able to hold a mouse properly. They seem more obsessed with "comptards" than most other casual fanbases but also view themselves as superior to /r/tf2? pretty confusing stuff.
edit: forgot to expand on why i even gave this context, but yeah supra is along the right lines we don't have to do this with this individual because i reckon most other pubbers/casuals dont even have the patience for this guy anyway, so to convince him and his base wouldn't go far enough in "bridging the gap"
i mean yeah to expand the context this guy and most of his fanbase are mostly /tf2g/ dwellers. if ur unfamiliar it's basically /r/tf2 but on 4chan, meaning same braindead takes on the game but with more slurs instead of wholesome doge. i like checking in on the thread every few months or when something "big" is happening in tf2 just to see what they have to say. It's a shame because they used to have players that revelled in pub stomping (10+ years ago) now it's full of babies that call u a slur for being able to hold a mouse properly. They seem more obsessed with "comptards" than most other casual fanbases but also view themselves as superior to /r/tf2? pretty confusing stuff.
edit: forgot to expand on why i even gave this context, but yeah supra is along the right lines we don't have to do this with this individual because i reckon most other pubbers/casuals dont even have the patience for this guy anyway, so to convince him and his base wouldn't go far enough in "bridging the gap"
Who else would you guys want on the casual side? Maybe some wholesome casual people? Could get a guy in for that
Who else would you guys want on the casual side? Maybe some wholesome casual people? Could get a guy in for that
It’s not the wholesome players who have a raging hate boner for all things competitive.
It’s not the wholesome players who have a raging hate boner for all things competitive.