we finally got communication, god bless
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panic attack: good changes because it was fuck-all useless
ambassador: in the right direction, but changing the headshot to a mini-crit instead of a full crit would've been nice instead of rng
dead ringer: good because it's so fucking spammy in pubs, and invis watch/cloak and dagger are far superior in 6v6 than dead ringer so nerfing it doesn't really affect 6v6 play, but still great changes
your eternal reward: not sure how i feel about removing the major skill aspect of it by adding the ability to disguise, but the trade-off of sacrificing a full cloak meter for a disguise sounds good on paper, will have to see how it pans out
sandman: ability to fight back after hit by a ball is incredible
bonk atomic punch: good changes considering how easy it is to abuse bonk and get behind a group of players with zero consequences
pretty boy's pocket pistol: actually useful now, thank god
crit-a-cola: personally i think it should be reverted to marked for death while the effect is active, so this will be interesting to see how the weapon turns out
atomizer: really good change that was the most annoying and hotly contested aspect of the weapon, still probably not a good idea to allow it in league play at all until people can actually give it a test, but the switch-to speed nerf is a good way to combat abusing it, the shit with mini-crits while airborne is dumb though, change it to like +10%/+15% damage while airborne
flying guillotine: fuck the long-range mini-crit, glad it's gone, the death of the sandman-cleaver combo is kind-of sad but having it carve away health at medium range was stupidly broken
base jumper: god bless
mantreads: good, but more than likely will not replace gunboats as using the mantreads would sacrifice the increased mobility of using gunboats without giving you the option of a secondary like the shotgun, but the air control buff will be fun to use with troll loadouts like rocket jumper/market gardener though
darwin's danger shield: no more 149 damage headshots, thank you jesus
razorback: no more re-supping for a new shield, god bless
vita-saw: i really don't know how to feel about this change, the concept of a medic having the potential to store 60%
of an ubercharge upon death is insane so it will most likely stay banned, but at the same time, if a medic is able to get that many hits on enemy players, the medic would've had full uber with the ubersaw, so it's a weapon that will have to be looked at
crusader's crossbow: god bless, but they REALLY need to reduce the health that it can heal in a burst, it's just way to easy to abuse
minigun changes: great change
gloves of running urgently: just change them to what they used to be, where you lose like 5 hp per tick when they're out and you don't get it back, and having them out can kill you, just add a like -25%/-30% reduction in health received from medi beams while deployed
eviction notice: was perfectly fine before, dunno why it's being messed with
fists of steel: should be changed to a 40% heal rate deduction and 40% overheal reduction while equipped considering it's the weapon to use in shit like hl where a heavy is just always with a medic and can abuse the fists of steel to get out of situations he has no business getting out of
rescue ranger: great step in the right direction, but giving the rescue ranger an effective range would be a good change so it can't be used to across-the-map repairs and rescues
we finally got communication, god bless
[spoiler]panic attack: good changes because it was fuck-all useless
ambassador: in the right direction, but changing the headshot to a mini-crit instead of a full crit would've been nice instead of rng
dead ringer: good because it's so fucking spammy in pubs, and invis watch/cloak and dagger are far superior in 6v6 than dead ringer so nerfing it doesn't really affect 6v6 play, but still great changes
your eternal reward: not sure how i feel about removing the major skill aspect of it by adding the ability to disguise, but the trade-off of sacrificing a full cloak meter for a disguise sounds good on paper, will have to see how it pans out
sandman: ability to fight back after hit by a ball is incredible
bonk atomic punch: good changes considering how easy it is to abuse bonk and get behind a group of players with zero consequences
pretty boy's pocket pistol: actually useful now, thank god
crit-a-cola: personally i think it should be reverted to marked for death while the effect is active, so this will be interesting to see how the weapon turns out
atomizer: really good change that was the most annoying and hotly contested aspect of the weapon, still probably not a good idea to allow it in league play at all until people can actually give it a test, but the switch-to speed nerf is a good way to combat abusing it, the shit with mini-crits while airborne is dumb though, change it to like +10%/+15% damage while airborne
flying guillotine: fuck the long-range mini-crit, glad it's gone, the death of the sandman-cleaver combo is kind-of sad but having it carve away health at medium range was stupidly broken
base jumper: god bless
mantreads: good, but more than likely will not replace gunboats as using the mantreads would sacrifice the increased mobility of using gunboats without giving you the option of a secondary like the shotgun, but the air control buff will be fun to use with troll loadouts like rocket jumper/market gardener though
darwin's danger shield: no more 149 damage headshots, thank you jesus
razorback: no more re-supping for a new shield, god bless
vita-saw: i really don't know how to feel about this change, the concept of a medic having the potential to store 60%
of an ubercharge upon death is insane so it will most likely stay banned, but at the same time, if a medic is able to get that many hits on enemy players, the medic would've had full uber with the ubersaw, so it's a weapon that will have to be looked at
crusader's crossbow: god bless, but they REALLY need to reduce the health that it can heal in a burst, it's just way to easy to abuse
minigun changes: great change
gloves of running urgently: just change them to what they used to be, where you lose like 5 hp per tick when they're out and you don't get it back, and having them out can kill you, just add a like -25%/-30% reduction in health received from medi beams while deployed
eviction notice: was perfectly fine before, dunno why it's being messed with
fists of steel: should be changed to a 40% heal rate deduction and 40% overheal reduction while equipped considering it's the weapon to use in shit like hl where a heavy is just always with a medic and can abuse the fists of steel to get out of situations he has no business getting out of
rescue ranger: great step in the right direction, but giving the rescue ranger an effective range would be a good change so it can't be used to across-the-map repairs and rescues[/spoiler]
Randomly picked 3 to talk about because I do not have the energy to share thoughts on every weapon, even if I'd like to.
Panic Attack
Promising to see Valve has a good understanding of why this weapon is so garbage. I like the direction they're pushing it in, but it's hard to tell by the numbers just how good/bad this will actually be. The majority of the time when you're whipping out a shotgun, you're aiming to kill the other player in 1-2 shots, so that part seems like it won't matter a ton at high level play. Still though if the upside doesn't end up being too much, I could see this being around stock shotgun level in terms of how good it is. Even if it turns out to be a little better, I don't think the game suffers from seeing more shotgun pockets play. As long as it still leaves gunboats as an option for pocket players, more hit scan on the field to counter scouts is a win in my book.
Rescue Ranger
I don't think this will impact 6v6 at all really, this weapon still seems too strong to be unbanned. This weapon is too strong because the engineer can heal his gun forever while staying completely out of harms way. Maybe Valve was thinking a lack of metal would prevent an engineer for just healing it forever, but only loosing 15 metal per shot means the gun will die far before the engineer ever runs out of metal. I think Valve needs to take a step back from the healing aspect of this weapon all together. It's got such a cool mechanic in that it can teleport buildings, focus on that instead and make the healing take like, 75 or 100 metal. Even removing the healing factor all together wouldn't be a bad idea if it got some other buff.
Fists of Steel
I didn't even really hate this weapon before it got unbanned. To me it seemed like running out to soak up damage as a heavy with your melee weapon out was sort of a gimmick play that would be countered by ignoring you, but I see the problem if it's a last point or something and the heavy runs onto the point and you loose because you couldn't do enough damage to the last player left alive and respawns come in. Hopefully these changes are enough, I don't think it's really possible for Valve to strike a sweet spot where they don't have to be banned, but also aren't completely useless unless they get a complete rework, but this weapon is kinda boring, nobody's going to be upset if Valve uses it to mess around and try new stuff with.
Randomly picked 3 to talk about because I do not have the energy to share thoughts on every weapon, even if I'd like to.
[b]Panic Attack[/b]
Promising to see Valve has a good understanding of why this weapon is so garbage. I like the direction they're pushing it in, but it's hard to tell by the numbers just how good/bad this will actually be. The majority of the time when you're whipping out a shotgun, you're aiming to kill the other player in 1-2 shots, so that part seems like it won't matter a ton at high level play. Still though if the upside doesn't end up being too much, I could see this being around stock shotgun level in terms of how good it is. Even if it turns out to be a little better, I don't think the game suffers from seeing more shotgun pockets play. As long as it still leaves gunboats as an option for pocket players, more hit scan on the field to counter scouts is a win in my book.
[b]Rescue Ranger[/b]
I don't think this will impact 6v6 at all really, this weapon still seems too strong to be unbanned. This weapon is too strong because the engineer can heal his gun forever while staying completely out of harms way. Maybe Valve was thinking a lack of metal would prevent an engineer for just healing it forever, but only loosing 15 metal per shot means the gun will die far before the engineer ever runs out of metal. I think Valve needs to take a step back from the healing aspect of this weapon all together. It's got such a cool mechanic in that it can teleport buildings, focus on that instead and make the healing take like, 75 or 100 metal. Even removing the healing factor all together wouldn't be a bad idea if it got some other buff.
[b]Fists of Steel[/b]
I didn't even really hate this weapon before it got unbanned. To me it seemed like running out to soak up damage as a heavy with your melee weapon out was sort of a gimmick play that would be countered by ignoring you, but I see the problem if it's a last point or something and the heavy runs onto the point and you loose because you couldn't do enough damage to the last player left alive and respawns come in. Hopefully these changes are enough, I don't think it's really possible for Valve to strike a sweet spot where they don't have to be banned, but also aren't completely useless unless they get a complete rework, but this weapon is kinda boring, nobody's going to be upset if Valve uses it to mess around and try new stuff with.
Vita-Saw
- Ubercharge on death is too valuable of an effect to be passive
- Goal: Change the weapon in a way that requires skill and risk in order to gain this effect
- Changes:
- Added "Organs" collecting concept (... you know, hit someone with a saw, and out pops a vital organ which you then take, and hold). Each hit with the Vita-Saw harvests the victim's organs (shown on the HUD).
- Added: On-death, preserve 15% ubercharge per Organ harvested. This effect caps at 60%.
its like an ubersaw but in the future
[quote=]
[b]Vita-Saw[/b]
- Ubercharge on death is too valuable of an effect to be passive
- Goal: Change the weapon in a way that requires skill and risk in order to gain this effect
- Changes:
- Added "Organs" collecting concept (... you know, hit someone with a saw, and out pops a vital organ which you then take, and hold). Each hit with the Vita-Saw harvests the victim's organs (shown on the HUD).
- Added: On-death, preserve 15% ubercharge per Organ harvested. This effect caps at 60%.
[/quote]
its like an ubersaw but in the future
Panic Attack[
- Fires a wide, fixed shot pattern (regardless of server settings)
I´m hoping this doesn´t mean they insist on keeping random spread on ...
Also : Added: +200% air control when blast jumping
WTF
I´ve always felt like a game with this type of movement ,messing around with aircontrol or with classes speed its a horrible thing to do.
The scout stock class speed its already pushing the limits of the movement speeds, yet it has a weapon that allows him to move at 520 hu..
Giving medics random speed depending on the class they´re healing its a bad thing not to mention scout class speed.
eyelander demoman´s
pyros with powerjack
spy´s with the big earner (so hard to track)
the conqueror giving group speed buffs
And now starting to mess around with aircontrol ? I think the classes speed need to be more respected and not just changed in order to try an overall balance
Panic Attack[
- Fires a wide, fixed shot pattern (regardless of server settings)
I´m hoping this doesn´t mean they insist on keeping random spread on ...
Also : Added: +200% air control when blast jumping
WTF
I´ve always felt like a game with this type of movement ,messing around with aircontrol or with classes speed its a horrible thing to do.
The scout stock class speed its already pushing the limits of the movement speeds, yet it has a weapon that allows him to move at 520 hu..
Giving medics random speed depending on the class they´re healing its a bad thing not to mention scout class speed.
eyelander demoman´s
pyros with powerjack
spy´s with the big earner (so hard to track)
the conqueror giving group speed buffs
And now starting to mess around with aircontrol ? I think the classes speed need to be more respected and not just changed in order to try an overall balance
vJillOn the Ambassador change - Keep in mind that revolvers in general already have a pretty tight cone. We found that having a 50% reduced spread on your first shot still results in nearly perfect accuracy at short-to-medium ranges (But, as mentioned, these changes are not set in stone)
What is the maximum acceptable range of effectiveness for the Ambassador, and why isn't a simple range limit to headshots the better option?
Because the way I see it, Spies are going to be denied out of perfectly-good headshots that they should have hit. Hitting long-distance headshots without a scope is one of the hardest pure aim feats you can pull off in this game, and now it's become completely RNG.
Look at these two scenarios for long-distance headshots after this is implemented:
The Spy should've hit it, but he misses instead.
Or, the Spy misses and he miraculously hits it instead.
The first isn't fair to the Spy and the second isn't fair to the dumb schmuck who got RNG'd for 102 damage across the map.
Not wanting Spy to hit 102 damage across the map- I get it. That's probably not what ya'll intended when you designed the weapon, but it is a skill that players have spent literal years developing. And it sucks a lot for the people who got good enough to do it for all that time and practice to disappear.
Instead of RNG, can you just decide what range you think it's OK for the Spy to headshot at and set the limit to that? And to keep positive feedback for players who are able to hit it at that range, maybe consider making it a mini-crit instead. It certainly won't oneshot anyone but it will still reward accuracy in some way and, most importantly, ensure that the player is getting positive feedback for their skill development.
As this change stands now, it comes off as unfairly frustrating to anyone that's put time into developing skill with this weapon.
[quote=vJill]On the Ambassador change - Keep in mind that revolvers in general already have a pretty tight cone. We found that having a 50% reduced spread on your first shot still results in nearly perfect accuracy at short-to-medium ranges (But, as mentioned, these changes are not set in stone)[/quote]
What is the maximum acceptable range of effectiveness for the Ambassador, and why isn't a simple range limit to headshots the better option?
Because the way I see it, Spies are going to be denied out of perfectly-good headshots that they should have hit. Hitting long-distance headshots without a scope is one of the hardest pure aim feats you can pull off in this game, and now it's become completely RNG.
Look at these two scenarios for long-distance headshots after this is implemented:
The Spy should've hit it, but he misses instead.
Or, the Spy misses and he miraculously hits it instead.
The first isn't fair to the Spy and the second isn't fair to the dumb schmuck who got RNG'd for 102 damage across the map.
Not wanting Spy to hit 102 damage across the map- I get it. That's probably not what ya'll intended when you designed the weapon, but it is a skill that players have spent literal years developing. And it sucks a lot for the people who got good enough to do it for all that time and practice to disappear.
Instead of RNG, can you just decide what range you think it's OK for the Spy to headshot at and set the limit to that? And to keep positive feedback for players who are able to hit it at that range, maybe consider making it a mini-crit instead. It certainly won't oneshot anyone but it will still reward accuracy in some way and, most importantly, ensure that the player is getting positive feedback for their skill development.
As this change stands now, it comes off as unfairly frustrating to anyone that's put time into developing skill with this weapon.
woah actually understandable and thought out nerfs to the 2 most powerful things about spy??
whaaaaa now how am i gonna make kids cry in tf2center
woah actually understandable and thought out nerfs to the 2 most powerful things about spy??
whaaaaa now how am i gonna make kids cry in tf2center
vJillOn the Ambassador change - Keep in mind that revolvers in general already have a pretty tight cone. We found that having a 50% reduced spread on your first shot still results in nearly perfect accuracy at short-to-medium ranges (But, as mentioned, these changes are not set in stone)
Hey, not sure if you'll read this but I gotta try, so first off thanks for posting here & thanks to Valve in general for this kind of communication, I am sure everyone here appreciates it greatly.
I can see where you're coming from, but even if it's nearly perfect accuracy, that's still not perfect and it is randomness. This is the only change I staunchly disagree on, and even the people in this thread who don't play Spy don't like it because it likewise means someone can "miss" and still 102 you. The Ambassador is a pretty skill based weapon even if getting 204'd from long range repeatedly sucks. Please just change it to a longer cooldown on headshots, that way the gun is still skill based for headshots but you can't be long ranged as effectively and die anymore.
Also, I think almost everyone here would also agree on another change: please make tf_damage_disablespread 1 also disable random fall damage spread.
TY. :)
[quote=vJill]On the Ambassador change - Keep in mind that revolvers in general already have a pretty tight cone. We found that having a 50% reduced spread on your first shot still results in nearly perfect accuracy at short-to-medium ranges (But, as mentioned, these changes are not set in stone)[/quote]
Hey, not sure if you'll read this but I gotta try, so first off thanks for posting here & thanks to Valve in general for this kind of communication, I am sure everyone here appreciates it greatly.
I can see where you're coming from, but even if it's nearly perfect accuracy, that's still not perfect and it is randomness. This is the only change I staunchly disagree on, and even the people in this thread who don't play Spy don't like it because it likewise means someone can "miss" and still 102 you. The Ambassador is a pretty skill based weapon even if getting 204'd from long range repeatedly sucks. Please just change it to a longer cooldown on headshots, that way the gun is still skill based for headshots but you can't be long ranged as effectively and die anymore.
Also, I think almost everyone here would also agree on another change: please make tf_damage_disablespread 1 also disable random fall damage spread.
TY. :)
smokeewoah actually understandable and thought out nerfs to the 2 most powerful things about spy??
whaaaaa now how am i gonna make kids cry in tf2center
how is the amby change a nerf I really dont understand? what % of your shots were shot across the map and of that % how many hit and how many had a follow up to make them matter?
I understand if you randomly 2 shot a sniper across the map or hit a medic for 102 in a comp game maybe that could be played around but most of the time I feel like people are shooting more mid range where you can actually aim and actually kill people
and now if this change is working like I think it is you can shoot a lot faster and get a lot more 102s and actually kill people
[quote=smokee]woah actually understandable and thought out nerfs to the 2 most powerful things about spy??
whaaaaa now how am i gonna make kids cry in tf2center[/quote]
how is the amby change a nerf I really dont understand? what % of your shots were shot across the map and of that % how many hit and how many had a follow up to make them matter?
I understand if you randomly 2 shot a sniper across the map or hit a medic for 102 in a comp game maybe that could be played around but most of the time I feel like people are shooting more mid range where you can actually aim and actually kill people
and now if this change is working like I think it is you can shoot a lot faster and get a lot more 102s and actually kill people
i think everything is decent or even good except the ambassador change is one of the strangest things ive ever seen
ContravJillOn the Ambassador change - Keep in mind that revolvers in general already have a pretty tight cone. We found that having a 50% reduced spread on your first shot still results in nearly perfect accuracy at short-to-medium ranges (But, as mentioned, these changes are not set in stone)
What is the maximum acceptable range of effectiveness for the Ambassador, and why isn't a simple range limit to headshots the better option?
Because the way I see it, Spies are going to be denied out of perfectly-good headshots that they should have hit. Hitting long-distance headshots without a scope is one of the hardest pure aim feats you can pull off in this game, and now it's become completely RNG.
Look at these two scenarios for long-distance headshots after this is implemented:
The Spy should've hit it, but he misses instead.
Or, the Spy misses and he miraculously hits it instead.
The first isn't fair to the Spy and the second isn't fair to the dumb schmuck who got RNG'd for 102 damage across the map.
Not wanting Spy to hit 102 damage across the map- I get it. That's probably not what ya'll intended when you designed the weapon, but it is a skill that players have spent literal years developing. And it sucks a lot for the people who got good enough to do it for all that time and practice to disappear.
Instead of RNG, can you just decide what range you think it's OK for the Spy to headshot at and set the limit to that? And to keep positive feedback for players who are able to hit it at that range, maybe consider making it a mini-crit instead. It certainly won't oneshot anyone but it will still reward accuracy in some way and, most importantly, ensure that the player is getting positive feedback for their skill development.
As this change stands now, it comes off as unfairly frustrating to anyone that's put time into developing skill with this wepaon.
DarkNecridvJillOn the Ambassador change - Keep in mind that revolvers in general already have a pretty tight cone. We found that having a 50% reduced spread on your first shot still results in nearly perfect accuracy at short-to-medium ranges (But, as mentioned, these changes are not set in stone)
Hey, not sure if you'll read this but I gotta try, so first off thanks for posting here & thanks to Valve in general for this kind of communication, I am sure everyone here appreciates it greatly.
I can see where you're coming from, but even if it's nearly perfect accuracy, that's still not perfect and it is randomness. This is the only change I staunchly disagree on, and even the people in this thread who don't play Spy don't like it because it likewise means someone can "miss" and still 102 you. The Ambassador is a pretty skill based weapon even if getting 204'd from long range repeatedly sucks. Please just change it to a longer cooldown on headshots, that way the gun is still skill based for headshots but you can't be long ranged as effectively and die anymore.
Also, I think almost everyone here would also agree on another change: please make tf_damage_disablespread 1 also disable random fall damage spread.
TY. :)
these people have great suggestions
i think everything is decent or even good except the ambassador change is one of the strangest things ive ever seen
[quote=Contra][quote=vJill]On the Ambassador change - Keep in mind that revolvers in general already have a pretty tight cone. We found that having a 50% reduced spread on your first shot still results in nearly perfect accuracy at short-to-medium ranges (But, as mentioned, these changes are not set in stone)[/quote]
What is the maximum acceptable range of effectiveness for the Ambassador, and why isn't a simple range limit to headshots the better option?
Because the way I see it, Spies are going to be denied out of perfectly-good headshots that they should have hit. Hitting long-distance headshots without a scope is one of the hardest pure aim feats you can pull off in this game, and now it's become completely RNG.
Look at these two scenarios for long-distance headshots after this is implemented:
The Spy should've hit it, but he misses instead.
Or, the Spy misses and he miraculously hits it instead.
The first isn't fair to the Spy and the second isn't fair to the dumb schmuck who got RNG'd for 102 damage across the map.
Not wanting Spy to hit 102 damage across the map- I get it. That's probably not what ya'll intended when you designed the weapon, but it is a skill that players have spent literal years developing. And it sucks a lot for the people who got good enough to do it for all that time and practice to disappear.
Instead of RNG, can you just decide what range you think it's OK for the Spy to headshot at and set the limit to that? And to keep positive feedback for players who are able to hit it at that range, maybe consider making it a mini-crit instead. It certainly won't oneshot anyone but it will still reward accuracy in some way and, most importantly, ensure that the player is getting positive feedback for their skill development.
As this change stands now, it comes off as unfairly frustrating to anyone that's put time into developing skill with this wepaon.[/quote]
[quote=DarkNecrid][quote=vJill]On the Ambassador change - Keep in mind that revolvers in general already have a pretty tight cone. We found that having a 50% reduced spread on your first shot still results in nearly perfect accuracy at short-to-medium ranges (But, as mentioned, these changes are not set in stone)[/quote]
Hey, not sure if you'll read this but I gotta try, so first off thanks for posting here & thanks to Valve in general for this kind of communication, I am sure everyone here appreciates it greatly.
I can see where you're coming from, but even if it's nearly perfect accuracy, that's still not perfect and it is randomness. This is the only change I staunchly disagree on, and even the people in this thread who don't play Spy don't like it because it likewise means someone can "miss" and still 102 you. The Ambassador is a pretty skill based weapon even if getting 204'd from long range repeatedly sucks. Please just change it to a longer cooldown on headshots, that way the gun is still skill based for headshots but you can't be long ranged as effectively and die anymore.
Also, I think almost everyone here would also agree on another change: please make tf_damage_disablespread 1 also disable random fall damage spread.
TY. :)[/quote]
these people have great suggestions
DarkNecridvJillOn the Ambassador change - Keep in mind that revolvers in general already have a pretty tight cone. We found that having a 50% reduced spread on your first shot still results in nearly perfect accuracy at short-to-medium ranges (But, as mentioned, these changes are not set in stone)
Hey, not sure if you'll read this but I gotta try, so first off thanks for posting here & thanks to Valve in general for this kind of communication, I am sure everyone here appreciates it greatly.
I can see where you're coming from, but even if it's nearly perfect accuracy, that's still not perfect and it is randomness. This is the only change I staunchly disagree on, and even the people in this thread who don't play Spy don't like it because it likewise means someone can "miss" and still 102 you. The Ambassador is a pretty skill based weapon even if getting 204'd from long range repeatedly sucks. Please just change it to a longer cooldown on headshots, that way the gun is still skill based for headshots but you can't be long ranged as effectively and die anymore.
Also, I think almost everyone here would also agree on another change: please make tf_damage_disablespread 1 also disable random fall damage spread.
TY. :)
ewwww do you understand how mind numbing adding a longer cooldown on headshots will be? think about a healthy enemy mid ranging you if you have longer cooldown on headshots you just lose or you run away
now think about someone across the map if you 102 them now you have to wait another .3 seconds on top of the current cooldown allowing them to do whatever they want heal/take cover/shoot back/move so you actually cant hit them becasue its across the map
this change to the spread is actually dank if you think about it you can fight people as spy and be good at the game and shit on people
edit: sweet lord I hope valve just lets people try it before listening to everyone
edit: adding a range limit is definitely 1000x better than making the cooldown for headshots longer
[quote=DarkNecrid][quote=vJill]On the Ambassador change - Keep in mind that revolvers in general already have a pretty tight cone. We found that having a 50% reduced spread on your first shot still results in nearly perfect accuracy at short-to-medium ranges (But, as mentioned, these changes are not set in stone)[/quote]
Hey, not sure if you'll read this but I gotta try, so first off thanks for posting here & thanks to Valve in general for this kind of communication, I am sure everyone here appreciates it greatly.
I can see where you're coming from, but even if it's nearly perfect accuracy, that's still not perfect and it is randomness. This is the only change I staunchly disagree on, and even the people in this thread who don't play Spy don't like it because it likewise means someone can "miss" and still 102 you. The Ambassador is a pretty skill based weapon even if getting 204'd from long range repeatedly sucks. Please just change it to a longer cooldown on headshots, that way the gun is still skill based for headshots but you can't be long ranged as effectively and die anymore.
Also, I think almost everyone here would also agree on another change: please make tf_damage_disablespread 1 also disable random fall damage spread.
TY. :)[/quote]
ewwww do you understand how mind numbing adding a longer cooldown on headshots will be? think about a healthy enemy mid ranging you if you have longer cooldown on headshots you just lose or you run away
now think about someone across the map if you 102 them now you have to wait another .3 seconds on top of the current cooldown allowing them to do whatever they want heal/take cover/shoot back/move so you actually cant hit them becasue its across the map
this change to the spread is actually dank if you think about it you can fight people as spy and be good at the game and shit on people
edit: sweet lord I hope valve just lets people try it before listening to everyone
edit: adding a range limit is definitely 1000x better than making the cooldown for headshots longer
I gotta say, I'm really impressed with Valve for nerfing the xbow in an intelligent way, god knows how many pages of heated discussion we had about the weapon on this site just a couple months ago, and as far as I know everyone's happy with this change.
I gotta say, I'm really impressed with Valve for nerfing the xbow in an intelligent way, god knows how many pages of heated discussion we had about the weapon on this site just a couple months ago, and as far as I know everyone's happy with this change.
Actually glad people will be using the revolver more instead of being a stutter stepping fake sniper when they play spy.
Actually glad people will be using the revolver more instead of being a stutter stepping fake sniper when they play spy.
#70 you seem to be really confused about what this nerf actually is based on this & your other post I think.
the headshot cooldown is still there. literally nothing changed except it's pure random if you can headshot anyone. there is no shooting faster and getting mad headshots or whatever you said in #68.
also the whole range limit one wouldn't feel good to actually play because it'd be pretty difficult to determine that you're in the correct range while actively trying to line up headshots unless you congested the game space (e.g. with symbols near people in range or w/e).
an increased headshot cooldown is fine. yeah you can't long range kill anymore (unless they're already lit or are dumb and don't try to run away). that's the point of the nerf they're trying to already do tho (ie you already can't long range kill anymore without pure luck with this change so there's no difference)? why do you want every long range ambassador kill to be random now? how does that remotely play into "being good at the game"?
e: tho yes i would take a range limit over random headshots even if i don't think it's a good change from a design perspective.
random headshots is just silly
#70 you seem to be really confused about what this nerf actually is based on this & your other post I think.
the headshot cooldown is still there. literally nothing changed except it's pure random if you can headshot anyone. there is no shooting faster and getting mad headshots or whatever you said in #68.
also the whole range limit one wouldn't feel good to actually play because it'd be pretty difficult to determine that you're in the correct range while actively trying to line up headshots unless you congested the game space (e.g. with symbols near people in range or w/e).
an increased headshot cooldown is fine. yeah you can't long range kill anymore (unless they're already lit or are dumb and don't try to run away). that's the point of the nerf they're trying to already do tho (ie you already can't long range kill anymore without pure luck with this change so there's no difference)? why do you want every long range ambassador kill to be random now? how does that remotely play into "being good at the game"?
e: tho yes i would take a range limit over random headshots even if i don't think it's a good change from a design perspective.
random headshots is just silly
DarkNecridalso the whole range limit one wouldn't feel good to actually play because it'd be pretty difficult to determine that while actively trying to line up headshots unless you congested the game space (e.g. with symbols near people in range or w/e).
if it still minicrits past the headshot range, the player still receives positive feedback for their accuracy.
yes, it would require feeling out what ranges are and aren't headshot range over time, but it's also a damn sight better than your shots just randomly missing or you being forced to cradle your ambassador for a little longer until it's ready to do acceptable damage again.
[quote=DarkNecrid]also the whole range limit one wouldn't feel good to actually play because it'd be pretty difficult to determine that while actively trying to line up headshots unless you congested the game space (e.g. with symbols near people in range or w/e).[/quote]
if it still minicrits past the headshot range, the player still receives positive feedback for their accuracy.
yes, it would require feeling out what ranges are and aren't headshot range over time, but it's also a damn sight better than your shots just randomly missing or you being forced to cradle your ambassador for a little longer until it's ready to do acceptable damage again.
ContraDarkNecridalso the whole range limit one wouldn't feel good to actually play because it'd be pretty difficult to determine that while actively trying to line up headshots unless you congested the game space (e.g. with symbols near people in range or w/e).
if it still minicrits past the headshot range, the player still receives positive feedback for their accuracy.
yes, it would require feeling out what ranges are and aren't headshot range over time, but it's also a damn sight better than your shots just randomly missing or you being forced to cradle your ambassador for a little longer until it's ready to do acceptable damage again.
n/o tho
o ye if it minicrit past the headshot range that would be fine i didn't see that i'm at like 6 spots at once so i might've speedread past stuff. that'd be solid!
[quote=Contra][quote=DarkNecrid]also the whole range limit one wouldn't feel good to actually play because it'd be pretty difficult to determine that while actively trying to line up headshots unless you congested the game space (e.g. with symbols near people in range or w/e).[/quote]
if it still minicrits past the headshot range, the player still receives positive feedback for their accuracy.
yes, it would require feeling out what ranges are and aren't headshot range over time, but it's also a damn sight better than your shots just randomly missing or you being forced to cradle your ambassador for a little longer until it's ready to do acceptable damage again.
n/o tho[/quote]
o ye if it minicrit past the headshot range that would be fine i didn't see that i'm at like 6 spots at once so i might've speedread past stuff. that'd be solid!
DarkNecridContraDarkNecridalso the whole range limit one wouldn't feel good to actually play because it'd be pretty difficult to determine that while actively trying to line up headshots unless you congested the game space (e.g. with symbols near people in range or w/e).
if it still minicrits past the headshot range, the player still receives positive feedback for their accuracy.
yes, it would require feeling out what ranges are and aren't headshot range over time, but it's also a damn sight better than your shots just randomly missing or you being forced to cradle your ambassador for a little longer until it's ready to do acceptable damage again.
n/o tho
o ye if it minicrit past the headshot range that would be fine i didn't see that i'm at like 6 spots at once so i might've speedread past stuff. that'd be solid!
so we're in agreement as to the best solution? range limit for headshot damage with minicrits past that so accuracy is still rewarded?
[quote=DarkNecrid][quote=Contra][quote=DarkNecrid]also the whole range limit one wouldn't feel good to actually play because it'd be pretty difficult to determine that while actively trying to line up headshots unless you congested the game space (e.g. with symbols near people in range or w/e).[/quote]
if it still minicrits past the headshot range, the player still receives positive feedback for their accuracy.
yes, it would require feeling out what ranges are and aren't headshot range over time, but it's also a damn sight better than your shots just randomly missing or you being forced to cradle your ambassador for a little longer until it's ready to do acceptable damage again.
n/o tho[/quote]
o ye if it minicrit past the headshot range that would be fine i didn't see that i'm at like 6 spots at once so i might've speedread past stuff. that'd be solid![/quote]
so we're in agreement as to the best solution? range limit for headshot damage with minicrits past that so accuracy is still rewarded?
CheesyMacgyverthis change to the spread is actually dank if you think about it you can fight people as spy and be good at the game and shit on people
When I read it, I interpreted it as the first shot (the one that's 100% accurate normally, every 0.95s on the ambassador) is 50% inaccurate and every other shot is unchanged (100% inaccurate). So it won't make you any better or reward skill more, it'll only make long-range headshotting very inconsistent without having any real impact on closer ranges (other than headshots being slightly more inconsistent there too). It's pretty much just a straight nerf in this case.
I could be wrong and it could be "ambassador gets no completely accurate first shots, but every shot is twice as accurate otherwise" which also makes sense, but I'd think valve would mention they did a tradeoff for non-headshots being more accurate if they went with that. We'll either need to hear from vJill (this new communication is great) or wait until the update comes out, I guess.
[quote=CheesyMacgyver]this change to the spread is actually dank if you think about it you can fight people as spy and be good at the game and shit on people[/quote]
When I read it, I interpreted it as the first shot (the one that's 100% accurate normally, every 0.95s on the ambassador) is 50% inaccurate and every other shot is unchanged (100% inaccurate). So it won't make you any better or reward skill more, it'll only make long-range headshotting very inconsistent without having any real impact on closer ranges (other than headshots being slightly more inconsistent there too). It's pretty much just a straight nerf in this case.
I could be wrong and it could be "ambassador gets no completely accurate first shots, but every shot is twice as accurate otherwise" which also makes sense, but I'd think valve would mention they did a tradeoff for non-headshots being more accurate if they went with that. We'll either need to hear from vJill (this new communication is great) or wait until the update comes out, I guess.
DarkNecrid
the headshot cooldown is still there. literally nothing changed except it's pure random if you can headshot anyone. there is no shooting faster and getting mad headshots or whatever you said in #68.
oic thats lame I wanna get mad headshots
thanks for the clarifications though I misunderstood sadly @darknecrid and jarateking <3
[quote=DarkNecrid]
the headshot cooldown is still there. literally nothing changed except it's pure random if you can headshot anyone. there is no shooting faster and getting mad headshots or whatever you said in #68.
[/quote]
oic thats lame I wanna get mad headshots
thanks for the clarifications though I misunderstood sadly @darknecrid and jarateking <3
vJillOn the Ambassador change - Keep in mind that revolvers in general already have a pretty tight cone. We found that having a 50% reduced spread on your first shot still results in nearly perfect accuracy at short-to-medium ranges (But, as mentioned, these changes are not set in stone)
but what's the point? do you have any response to the rng accusation other than 'well it basically works accurately anyway'? why not just make it accurate and change it differently?
for the record: basically every other change on this list is positive. that's a really high success rate. good job.
[quote=vJill]On the Ambassador change - Keep in mind that revolvers in general already have a pretty tight cone. We found that having a 50% reduced spread on your first shot still results in nearly perfect accuracy at short-to-medium ranges (But, as mentioned, these changes are not set in stone)[/quote]
but what's the point? do you have any response to the rng accusation other than 'well it basically works accurately anyway'? why not just make it accurate and change it differently?
for the record: basically every other change on this list is positive. that's a really high success rate. good job.
also: if i'm reading it right, the crossbow change isn't going to impact rollouts. i think? because it's based on time-since-damage.
also: if i'm reading it right, the crossbow change isn't going to impact rollouts. i think? because it's based on time-since-damage.
Dear Valve,
Delete pyro
Thank you
Dear Valve,
Delete pyro
Thank you
My (summarized) opinions.
Show Content
Panic Attack: Good. Will be interesting to see how it plays!
Ambassador: I am skeptical about RNG involved in shooting it. The fun of the weapon was its accuracy. Perhaps change it to minicrits on headshot instead.
Dead Ringer: screw this weapon it is so annoying thank you for the nerf.
YER: Seems interesting but I will have to see how it plays out.
Sandman: This is the change everyone wanted to see. I hope the slow could be nerfed a little bit because it can still be very strong. At least this means u can't spam balls at the enemy medic and stun him while your roamer sacks and drops him because he cannot uber.
Bonk: perhaps make it so a % of final slow is effective during bonk to decrease effectiveness while it is active. This would mean you can still use it to get behind but if you use it carelessly you can get chased down.
Pocket Pistol: Seems very good as a flank scout sidegrade. Keep it like this.
Crit-a-cola: The problem with this item is that you can use it to 1-shot a medic at full health. Perhaps a change that could be made is that you do less damage with it every shot and then remove the damage taken debuff? Just a thought.
Atomizer: Finally seems balanced thank u volvo. Just note that the extra damage on melee hit is never gonna be used.
Flying Guillotine: Still seems like a spam weapon with free damage. I would like to see it changed so it does less damage on initial hit, or an increase in recharge time.
Base Jumper: Still a gimmicky item but at least it's not that good anymore.
Mantreads: Loving this change and is very hype. Seems to be good for sacking roamers as it gives you more mobility. How much extra mobility is yet to be seen though, but I am excited to see the crazy things people come up with.
Darwin's Danger Shield: Thanks I no longer need to wear this item to instantly be better than a sniper not wearing this item. The melee damage thing is weird though. I'd say remove that unless it is somehow in line with the pyro updates coming out.
Razorback: I never use this item but I guess HL mains and (7v7) "mains" love this.
Vita-Saw: Most interesting change. I like it a lot and I really really really hope people don't find ways to abuse this after rounds to gain free uber advantage the next round.
Crusader's Crossbow: A step in the right direction. Now slightly nerf healing or base healing on crit heals and it will probably be balanced.
Minigun: Heavy is my least-played class but I guess Heavy mains can rejoice at these splendit-seeming changes!
Gloves of Running Urgently: I think a % of health sapped per second should be permanent self-damage to compensate for rollout damage. Preferably a Heavy would arrive on mid with similar health as a roamer. Note that this would also be strong for building ubers.
Eviction Notice: same as above.
Fists of Steel: This weapon is so broken you might as well reduce the resistances outright. Step in the right direction though.
Rescue Ranger: Still annoying and over-powered since you can stand near ammo packs or spawn and be completely safe to heal your gun from range. Make it so the repair effectiveness decreases over range and give the teleport ability a medium-long range.
My (summarized) opinions.
[spoiler]Panic Attack: Good. Will be interesting to see how it plays!
Ambassador: I am skeptical about RNG involved in shooting it. The fun of the weapon was its accuracy. Perhaps change it to minicrits on headshot instead.
Dead Ringer: screw this weapon it is so annoying thank you for the nerf.
YER: Seems interesting but I will have to see how it plays out.
Sandman: This is the change everyone wanted to see. I hope the slow could be nerfed a little bit because it can still be very strong. At least this means u can't spam balls at the enemy medic and stun him while your roamer sacks and drops him because he cannot uber.
Bonk: perhaps make it so a % of final slow is effective during bonk to decrease effectiveness while it is active. This would mean you can still use it to get behind but if you use it carelessly you can get chased down.
Pocket Pistol: Seems very good as a flank scout sidegrade. Keep it like this.
Crit-a-cola: The problem with this item is that you can use it to 1-shot a medic at full health. Perhaps a change that could be made is that you do less damage with it every shot and then remove the damage taken debuff? Just a thought.
Atomizer: Finally seems balanced thank u volvo. Just note that the extra damage on melee hit is never gonna be used.
Flying Guillotine: Still seems like a spam weapon with free damage. I would like to see it changed so it does less damage on initial hit, or an increase in recharge time.
Base Jumper: Still a gimmicky item but at least it's not that good anymore.
Mantreads: Loving this change and is very hype. Seems to be good for sacking roamers as it gives you more mobility. How much extra mobility is yet to be seen though, but I am excited to see the crazy things people come up with.
Darwin's Danger Shield: Thanks I no longer need to wear this item to instantly be better than a sniper not wearing this item. The melee damage thing is weird though. I'd say remove that unless it is somehow in line with the pyro updates coming out.
Razorback: I never use this item but I guess HL mains and (7v7) "mains" love this.
Vita-Saw: Most interesting change. I like it a lot and I really really really hope people don't find ways to abuse this after rounds to gain free uber advantage the next round.
Crusader's Crossbow: A step in the right direction. Now slightly nerf healing or base healing on crit heals and it will probably be balanced.
Minigun: Heavy is my least-played class but I guess Heavy mains can rejoice at these splendit-seeming changes!
Gloves of Running Urgently: I think a % of health sapped per second should be permanent self-damage to compensate for rollout damage. Preferably a Heavy would arrive on mid with similar health as a roamer. Note that this would also be strong for building ubers.
Eviction Notice: same as above.
Fists of Steel: This weapon is so broken you might as well reduce the resistances outright. Step in the right direction though.
Rescue Ranger: Still annoying and over-powered since you can stand near ammo packs or spawn and be completely safe to heal your gun from range. Make it so the repair effectiveness decreases over range and give the teleport ability a medium-long range.[/spoiler]
Contra
so we're in agreement as to the best solution? range limit for headshot damage with minicrits past that so accuracy is still rewarded?
i still think it isn't ideal because it still doesn't provide total clarity (without visual creep) / is VERY susceptible to lag compensation issues when people are at the edge of the range which will piss you off where on your screen they were in range and the server is like lol nope, whereas just lengthening the headshot cooldown to like 1.25s is fine because that's just adjusting the crosshair for the Ambassador to let you know when it's fully back to normal spread and that provides complete player clarity while achieving the goal in question all the same.
that said it's still infinitely better than random spread headshots, so i wouldn't mind if it went that way, i just don't think it's the preferable option.
[quote=Contra]
so we're in agreement as to the best solution? range limit for headshot damage with minicrits past that so accuracy is still rewarded?[/quote]
i still think it isn't ideal because it still doesn't provide total clarity (without visual creep) / is VERY susceptible to lag compensation issues when people are at the edge of the range which will piss you off where on your screen they were in range and the server is like lol nope, whereas just lengthening the headshot cooldown to like 1.25s is fine because that's just adjusting the crosshair for the Ambassador to let you know when it's fully back to normal spread and that provides complete player clarity while achieving the goal in question all the same.
that said it's still infinitely better than random spread headshots, so i wouldn't mind if it went that way, i just don't think it's the preferable option.
TF TeamB.A.S.E Jumper
- Players often complain that the B.A.S.E. Jumper is frustrating to fight against because the target is simply too hard to hit. This is mostly due to the combination of being able to deploy/retract at will, and the amount of steering control they have - which makes them too unpredictable.
- Changes:
- Reduced amount of air control while deployed by 50%
- Removed the ability to re-deploy the parachute once retracted (until the player lands on the ground again)
i love you
[quote=TF Team]B.A.S.E Jumper
- Players often complain that the B.A.S.E. Jumper is frustrating to fight against because the target is simply too hard to hit. This is mostly due to the combination of being able to deploy/retract at will, and the amount of steering control they have - which makes them too unpredictable.
- Changes:
- Reduced amount of air control while deployed by 50%
- Removed the ability to re-deploy the parachute once retracted (until the player lands on the ground again)[/quote]
i love you
Edit: internet derp sorry
Edit: internet derp sorry
I gotta say Vita-Saw had me concerned at first, but it does have a niche in a medic being caught out in a situation where the rest of the team might die and the medic can at least dive for a player and be rewarded for it, rather than hope to get the 26-50% uber needed to stay alive (and still potentially get chased/juggled and end up dying later). Seems way too niche for competitive play, but it is interesting even outside of "desperado" plays, given you can essentially "store" ubercharge the way the ubersaw gained it. Keep 1-2 organs nabbed after someone like a roamer or scout gets too close, and have a nice little advantage down the road. Good balance of risk reward on both sides of a comp match, though ubersaw will reign supreme for its hype in clutching rounds I feel.
The Crossbow change could not be any more exciting and well made.
I kinda wish Mantreads at least had a small rocket jump self-harm reduction like 10% or 20%, or even 0 fall damage, or a combination of both. Air control is interesting to make it more utilized offensively, but its passive abilities need to come in handy for failing to use it to its full effectiveness. taking close to 1/4 your health for rockets, AND taking fall damage make it a lot less viable as an offensive secondary when you can't even abuse it most of the time. Good knockback bonus though.
Bonk! feels like the slowdown nerf is a little too steep. The concept itself makes sense (sugar rush -> sugar crash), but the negative effect might be a bit too high. 200+ damage leads to maybe a 10-40% slowdown or something should be an acceptable range without making it completely unviable for scouts, and at least justifies chasing a scout using it to escape (which is a nice balance for its typical comp use).
Atomizer is hilarious and should be fun in pubs. Could def see comp viability in a similar fashion as the Winger since Boston Basher isn't as necessary for one, sometimes even both scouts.
Fists of Steel seems long overdo. Rewards preparation for tanking rather than having that insane tanking ability on a whim (esp with heal support).
I gotta say Vita-Saw had me concerned at first, but it does have a niche in a medic being caught out in a situation where the rest of the team might die and the medic can at least dive for a player and be rewarded for it, rather than hope to get the 26-50% uber needed to stay alive (and still potentially get chased/juggled and end up dying later). Seems way too niche for competitive play, but it is interesting even outside of "desperado" plays, given you can essentially "store" ubercharge the way the ubersaw gained it. Keep 1-2 organs nabbed after someone like a roamer or scout gets too close, and have a nice little advantage down the road. Good balance of risk reward on both sides of a comp match, though ubersaw will reign supreme for its hype in clutching rounds I feel.
The Crossbow change could not be any more exciting and well made.
I kinda wish Mantreads at least had a small rocket jump self-harm reduction like 10% or 20%, or even 0 fall damage, or a combination of both. Air control is interesting to make it more utilized offensively, but its passive abilities need to come in handy for failing to use it to its full effectiveness. taking close to 1/4 your health for rockets, AND taking fall damage make it a lot less viable as an offensive secondary when you can't even abuse it most of the time. Good knockback bonus though.
Bonk! feels like the slowdown nerf is a little too steep. The concept itself makes sense (sugar rush -> sugar crash), but the negative effect might be a bit too high. 200+ damage leads to maybe a 10-40% slowdown or something should be an acceptable range without making it completely unviable for scouts, and at least justifies chasing a scout using it to escape (which is a nice balance for its typical comp use).
Atomizer is hilarious and should be fun in pubs. Could def see comp viability in a similar fashion as the Winger since Boston Basher isn't as necessary for one, sometimes even both scouts.
Fists of Steel seems long overdo. Rewards [i]preparation [/i]for tanking rather than having that insane tanking ability on a whim (esp with heal support).
I'd like to remind/encourage everyone who is planning on sending feedback to Valve to also mention how great and important it is that they communicated these changes before release and that they should do it more often. It seems that Valve finally understood that communication is what players want, but this seems like a good opportunity to really set that in cement.
I'd like to remind/encourage everyone who is planning on sending feedback to Valve to also mention how great and important it is that they communicated these changes before release and that they should do it more often. It seems that Valve finally understood that communication is what players want, but this seems like a good opportunity to really set that in cement.
im still waiting for them to remove bullet spread from the entire game
im still waiting for them to remove bullet spread from the entire game
vJillOn the Ambassador change - Keep in mind that revolvers in general already have a pretty tight cone. We found that having a 50% reduced spread on your first shot still results in nearly perfect accuracy at short-to-medium ranges (But, as mentioned, these changes are not set in stone)
Is it possible to bring back tf2 beta client so we can playtest these changes
[quote=vJill]On the Ambassador change - Keep in mind that revolvers in general already have a pretty tight cone. We found that having a 50% reduced spread on your first shot still results in nearly perfect accuracy at short-to-medium ranges (But, as mentioned, these changes are not set in stone)[/quote]
Is it possible to bring back tf2 beta client so we can playtest these changes