@Marxist
There have been a lot of attempts to test new maps, and tf2maps has done valve-backed mapping/modeling contests. What it would take to get that to be comp-centric would be a structured, prize-oriented contest for a competitive map, and then have the winner be decided by a second, prize-oriented tournament, played exclusively on said new maps. It would probably be the best way to get new maps into the competitive scene, and definitely the only way to get serious testing done on them.

No you're not. The only reason the QF is required on Gullywash mid is because high ground is a requirement for everyone instead of an advantage for some. You gain no advantage from jumping your med to crates on Granary (which you could do w/o the QF), there's no point to sitting on top of Snake. All you're doing is asking to get counter jumped or the enemy scouts are just going to walk through the empty point to your Demo. Your players have half as big of an overheal and that matters. You will have uber first AFTER the midfight, but any midfight that plays out normally will be finished by that time. It's not a requirement at mid anywhere other than Gully.

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That being said I'm glad it's banned. I was so excited when the change was made because it was so fresh and effective. But over time I began to like it less and less, and so did all the people I played with. We even came to a silent agreement not to use it frequently in our little inhouse pug group because nobody was enjoying it anymore. So I'm glad it's banned.

However,

I do not think it is fundamentally broken. With the removal of the extra bells and whistles (knockback resistence, medic overheal, constant max build) I think the gun will be perfect. Kritz, Sniper, and Market Gardener will become hard counters to the QF uber, while it becomes much more feasible to focus down a Quick Fixed Medic with normal weapons. I'm going to write an email to Valve explaining why I think it was banned and what could be changed to fix it. Hopefully they'll listen.

Obviously you don't ever check the ESEA forums. I'd say the CS community is largely split on their opinions of the new weapons and buy prices in cs:go.

the advanatge of qf is that you get to mid quicker and have more heals during the fight. not getting your med on top of things lol

Wow, you want someone to put a shit ton of time and energy into making a map, testing it, and then have a huge pool of maps to choose from? WHAT A WONDERFUL WORLD THAT WOULD BE!

Unfortunately, no one is willing to put the time and energy into actually testing them. On top of that, the community's general reception to ANYTHING new, whether its a map or item, is so fucking abominable that the comp community has pretty much alienated anyone who would be willing to make any maps whatsoever. The diehard fanatics who do focus on comp play STILL can't get maps tested by anyone, even with an entire forum section dedicated to new maps, and even if they do they would still get shit on by everyone (WHATS THIS DUMB SHIT! LETS JUST PLAY BADLANDNNDDS!).

An acceptance of new things (maps, unlocks, strategies, etc) is fundamental to getting new things, and this community's attitude is pretty much anathema to any such endeavor.

QF is just better at every mid. The only way to beat it is build kritz near 2nd. Dunno about you but I like to see midfights.

Having your medic fly onto high ground with a soldier and a scout sitting there you're basically invulnerable, not to mention this happens before the other team gets to mid. The med also gets uber in the midfight if it's any other map except gully.

I can't believe someone has to explain this to you.

I remember just a while back when metalworks was in rc3 people wouldn't stop bitching at me for picking it in pugs. But I don't think people are so averse to new things as they are to being ignorant (of hiding spots, spawns, most importantly the meta) Then again when I ask how they expect to learn a map without playing it the typical response I receive is to kindly fuck myself, so who knows what really transpires in their elaborate thoughts.

its not badlands

If they jump their heavy classes to high ground your fully buffed scouts cut the rest of their players right out from under them. While they camp up top building QF you consolidate your control over the rest of the point, and when they solo/2man uber into you you scatter and collapse onto them like you would any other solo uber.

The Medic isn't getting there any faster than the demo, who's not getting there much faster than the Scouts. If their entire team is halfway across the point before a single one of your players shows up I think you're doing something wrong.

I have never had a problem organizing a team to counter a quick fix mid. Maybe it's because the other team wasn't very good at it, and maybe it's because my players were better. Or maybe it's because my calls are a little more dynamic than JUMP THEN JUMP THEM JUMP THEM.

You're a roamer right? Did you run shotgun to mid? I'll bet $10 you didn't and just tried the by now long proven ineffective strategy of bombing the combo/demo for damage that your scouts can't follow up on because they're running the quick fix.

If you insist on pretending that you're fighting uber when you're fighting Quick Fix you're going to lose and you're going to deserve it.

you aren't fully buffed if the qf team is doing it right. you get spammed to shit coming in because every class on their team is able to get there faster with better heals. having your roamer run shotgun does not offset the heal and positioning AND uber advantage running qf to mid gives you

Yeah I'm quite aware of that problem myself scorpio - I did some new map pugs back in the day, and I remember how leery people were about even cp_process when it first hit the scene (given changes were made, but the core of the map was fine).

I was mainly getting at *at least* a tournament, because just pugging on it won't draw the sort of attention - you'd need wide swaths of the community to participate in the thing and encourage them to play on the map multiple times so they could get a real good feel for it so that either A.) meaningful changes could be made (or at least suggested) by a large number of players as opposed to the typical 5-6 or B.) we'd know just to move onto another map or throw it in the rotation. My other insinuation in my previous post was, out of the previous 4 maps we've tried out in past seasons (unless I'm mistaken) have all been made by scorpio. There's nothing wrong with him being a prolific map maker, but the fact that he seems to be the only one still doing meaningful development means something is broken or could be done better.

I think another helpful development would be for people to get together and partially systematize how maps are made. How many entrances into last is too many or too few and so forth so that folks who get that urge to make something decent don't end up accidentally making cp_obscure. How big is too big how small is too small and so on. You see this sort of thing in star craft where *basically* every map resembles each other slightly,but will be somewhat different in a few important ways either due to size, routing, etc.

We played some really bad maps (not sure how willingly) in NMW, but you're right about this. Aside from your maps, people really liked Dorkster's cp_bunk and last I talked to him about it he said that he would have be fine with someone taking over if the .bsp hadn't been corrupted by something or other. Peaks was also something that was on the way to becoming a map people liked. Of course nothing ever happened with any of the maps until you took Revanence (I think that's what you called it before you changed it to Metalworks) and Process to the invite pugs because the overall skill level of those who cared in NMW was low and those who had a semblance of anything above open were just there to fuck around on 6s classes that weren't their mains and didn't really give two shits about the map. I wouldn't say that the effort wasn't there so much as people who had legitimately valuable experience didn't really care about it except for Healbot to some extent. Of course this apparently changed from just them to everyone when whoever it was took over from you guys after I took my hiatus.

I talked to Wax about it recently. I had hopes of bringing the weekends back even just for fun but I was extremely disappointed by the one that was held.

You're absolutely right something could be done better. Instead of being a bunch of fucking children who can't handle change, the competitive community could grow a pair and try new things. The reason why I'm the only one whose maps are being picked or put into votes is because I'm the only one with thick enough skin to last under the hateful gaze of "COMPETITIVE TEAM FORTRESS". I'm the only one stubborn enough to persist in the face of dozens of assholes constantly talking shit about me and my maps.

Honestly, if process hadn't been incredibly far along in development when standin was put in rotation, you guys wouldn't be playing it. I can't imagine I would have kept making maps after the way it was received.

The problem isn't some "theory of how maps should be made for comp". It isn't a need for certain number of entrances, sizes of combat areas, etc. Its "LETS NOT BE TERRIBLE TO THE PEOPLE WHO MAKE ARE COMMUNITY A FUN AND INTERESTING PLACE WITH NEW AND INTERESTING THINGS!"

Damn, shit just got real in here. Again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqLHsrDFAk0&feature=youtu.be

You're not some lone map-making messiah out against the odds of a community that is unwilling to change at all. Plenty of people told you that cp_ashville was way too big and you pretty much straight up ignored all of that.

And this notion that any contribution no matter how flawed should be treasured and embraced by the community is straight up wrong. There are no participation medals in a competitive community.

there is a lot of words in this thread.

scorpio, your maps are amazing. <3

Maybe you should re-read his post, because if you're getting "let's treasure every map regardless of quality" from "let's not be outright hostile towards people trying to make maps for us to play" you're doing it wrong.

I <3 scorpio and his maps.

standing would of been more enjoyable with quickfix

p.s. june, what is your problem?

you always shitpost in every thread.

I think that's how almost every competitive community treats stuff that changes their game. Just look at SC2 when balance changes happen, you'll never see worse vitriol. People got to give some people power to just be willing to shove maps down people's throats.

Arguably, but people didn't like how dull it was in 6s (the cap time took FOREVER back when it was made in mind for ESEA. Even averaging a 5x on a point would have it take around 20 seconds to cap) and that rounds were decided by who sent better parties to what points, so luck was a more prominent factor in deciding rounds. Because it's 6s, you cannot really commit to having a player or two try to hold a capped point while the rest of the team contests the other two.

It was a very interesting idea back in Season 10, but its use in any sort of competitive league is done (unless UGC puts it in S12 HL), but we got one hell of a fun map for pubs out of it in the end I guess.

Forcing maps on people is all fine for solid nearly finished maps (it has worked in the past, though really isnt ideal), but the real issue here is getting new maps tested from start to finish.

As things stand now there's no formal way to really get a map tested from the first alpha onward, which is a real shame since there's quite a few people in the mapping community who want to atleast try to make maps that are geared towards competitive play, but then they come here and post it, and if they're lucky they get a test or two, during which, with alarming regularity, there's someone who just sits there the whole time spouting useless drivel about how they hate the map, it's not badlands, etc, without ever saying anything useful, and in addition to that, start fucking around in map tests. Then those same people come back and complain that no maps are good enough to be played in a competitive setting.

That's been my experience with the comp tf2 community, and the experience of basically every other mapper I know who has ever tried to get into the comp scene for mapping, and it really needs to stop if comp tf2 ever wants to see new customs that work well in comp become a regular thing.

That said, there is a good chunk of people here who do try to be helpful, explain their reasonings, etc, and that's great, the community needs more of that.

speaking of which, somebody please bring it back; the koth version.

No offense but I don't think you ever played a mid against a team running qf that had any clue what they were doing. If your medic chains to the demo, the demo can do the fastest rollouts possible without picking up medpacks on the way. Normally on mids, the speed at which your players get there is limited by your medics walking speed. On qf this is no longer the case.

As a brief example, consider snakewater. In a typical snakewater midfight, the two demos show up first and spam at each-other for a bit before the scouts show up. Shortly afterwards the medic and soldiers show up. Imagine you're a demo on a team not running quickfix against a team that is running it. When you show up to mid, you're fighting their demo like normal, only he has a medic healing him while he's doing it. At the very least, assuming equal skill, he forces you out of the mid.

On top of that their team will have a faster healrate at mid, which will matter unless the midfight ends very quickly, and furthermore it's likely they'll have uber before the mid is done. I also am not sure what your fascination with getting meds on top of things is. Honestly if that's what teams you play against are using the qf for, they're using it wrong. They should essentially play the mid like normal, only with the added benefits of getting all their players there faster than you, having more heals than you, giving their medic more survivability/mobility than yours, and potentially getting uber during the fight before you. Basically, on most maps, if the other team runs it to mid and has any clue what they're doing, you'll need to run it in order to compete with them on mid.

When cp_ashville was put into the ESEA rotation, it was too late to make any drastic changes, such as map size. It could be done, but you might as well make a new map at that point.

Speaking of maps, I have attempted to make 3 maps before, and am currently working on a 6s-oriented linear A/D map. I would love to have my maps tested. I also ran the last two rounds of new map pugs. I quit hosting those because the quality seemingly went down the sink, although I guess it doesn't really matter as any public pugs are going to end up being bad. If we start them up again, we'll need some way to get maps we've tested into Invite Pugs.

How is cp_highlands coming along? Have you made any drastic changes since a4?

ur wrong just run kritz and CRUSH qf
duh wat r u stupid?