There are some weapons that you simply cant balance out because their main mechanic is broken itself in comp, but not in pubs (like bonk, base jumper, etc...). And remember ~85% of the playerbase is casual.

A point he brings up is that we should leave weapon balancing to professionals, but I doubt many, if any, Valve employees play or even spectate comp 6s. Also why does Mr. Slin have so much influence on gameplay?

it wasn't only slin..

I understand and respect the majority of these views but like I seriously don't know how you expect the community to get behind the devs again. They've dropped the ball continuously with these changes and it isn't even like its just some unlucky one off. Patch after patch has just been filled with pointless nerf, buffs to already obnoxious weapons and the list goes on.

And I'm sure we all know why we have ban lists, its not some ungodly arbitrary fuck you or refusal to accept to the entirety of Valve's effort. Its because we essentially tried to keep the competitive game as fun as possible and this has always been a point of contention when it comes to weapon and even class bans. What is actually fun to play?

On top of that I think its incredibly close minded to say we're the only community that endorses banning things in a competitive scene and just sit and complain about it on the forums until it gets fixed. League and Dota both have pick/ban systems simply for the fact, in certain patches characters may just be straight up just fucking unfun to play against and putting a lot of the other information developers can take in. Ban lists are usually a pretty good indicator when something is a problem. But at that point I suppose that requires too much mental input from devs to say "why is it banned?"

If they themselves can't figure it out, its pretty evident from the decisions they make that for the most part. They really do not listen to player feedback about the weapons and clearly do not value it. If that was the case we'd still have a clear communication tunnel with Valve where perhaps, this meeting could've gone in depth explaining inherent weapon flaws and give them serious input as to why the weapons fall flat. Maybe I'm being rude towards the developers but they have shown so little understanding of their own game and as someone who has watched it change over the past 7 years its super frustrating.

I still don't understand the point of the expanded whitelist, maybe someone could explain it to me?
Valve won't give a shit about the data and valve definitely listen to the what the community wants, they never have in TF2 and they never will. They struggle to do what the community wants in CSGO, what makes you think they'll do it in TF2? Valve only finally added MM and some support for the scene after TF2 finally got a direct competitor and not when it was obvious it would be a smart business decision (2010/2011 when SC2 and LoL really started to become big and eSports became more than a joke). If you want to point at DotA2 as a sign of valve being able to handle eSports, consider the fact that everyone that works on DotA does so because they want so and they love the game. Gabe Newell personally has an interest in the game and that goes a long mile to help the whole scene, a lot more than people can really be aware of I think anyway.

Gameplay won't improve, it seems like literally everyone is aware of this.. Last holds seems stronger even though they were already pretty difficult to break. Will more of the classes see more playtime? Maybe but probably not, and it's not like it matters because I would say most people don't really care about that too much.

The only argument I've really seen so far is that Valve will finally have data to balance weapons around and maybe more people would be willing to play competitive. Not only will valve not care about the data but it's already there, the simple fact that an item is banned means that there is something wrong with it and it doesn't take too much of a brain to figure out what's wrong especially if you play with the item in a pub or MM game for like 10 minutes.

If you think that somehow unbanning all these weapons gives us a "truer" TF2 experience then what the fuck have I been playing for the past 6 years cause that's the game I fell in love with, that's the game so many people fell in love with, it's why were here honestly and sure the weapons can be fun in pubs but I seriously fail to see how this gives a more dynamic, interesting and fun game that what we already have.

Pubbers also won't really give a crap. People start playing 6s/HL because they love the game and not being able to play with a few badly designed/overpowered unlocks isn't gonna stop them. I also just can't see someone saying "wow my favorite weapon got unbanned, it's time to finally start playing 6s/HL!" It just seems nuts to me, that's not a barrier that exists in this game.

If someone could give a reasonable explanation that'd be great because honestly I'm clueless about the whole thing.
And just FYI: I had no idea about this happening until rando asked for us to remove the whitelist during the scrim and Nursey explained the whitelist was getting bigger and noted something along the lines of "a few things are getting unbanned, nothing gamebreaking" but yet the atomizer and base jumper were on that whitelist...?

If valve actually does listen and balance around stats from comp leagues as slin says then the global whitelist will be a success.

BUT

Who says they will? There doesn't appear to be anyone on the small tf2 team that actively follows leagues so all this information on item balance will have to be communicated to the dev team somehow. If b4nny or slin or someone has a direct line to the dev team then that's great but do we even have a way of ensuring that the benefits of this global whitelist are passed onto valve?

What's going to happen with the weapons that this list still bans? Are we eventually going to add them to the whitelist? Even if Valve never fixes them?

If, like Slin says, the point of this whitelist is that people are vocal about the things they don't like so Valve takes a look at them, I really can't understand why there are any banned weapons. How do you want Valve to fix them, if you imply we're not giving them feedback about those broken weapons? Let's be real, Valve knows why they are banned. They simply don't agree with our thoughts or they still haven't tackled some of the weapons.

Great, they will now get feedback for the Natascha, the same exact feedback it's had for years: stuns are not fun and inherently stupid in TF2. Imagine they now decide to respond to us and fix it. What about the Sandman? If your logic is that we need to use it in a high-level enviroment in order to find what's broken with it, then it will never get fixed, because this council decided it will not see the light in competitive play.

The real question is: why is this whitelist better than the previous one? Because it has 10 fewer bans (compared to the last ETF2L whitelist)? How is this exact situation going to improve the communication with Valve? The bans you guys decided on seem completely arbitrary, much more so than the previous banlist, to the point that the Atomizer was almost allowed.

PS: to be fair, I lied: I understand why there are banned weapons: you don't want to deal with shit like the Sandman or the Crit-a-cola. But you're calling for a BIG change. If you really want to commit to it with weapons like the Natascha, then you should be coherent and do it with all weapons.

I don't see the reason to try and please valve so much anymore, the game has only gotten gradually worse since they stepped in with their half-assed balance changes and design.
A saving grace were if they'd host or support tournaments/leagues/teams(or just do anything for the comp scene really) but with their current effort, wouldn't predict that happening any time soon.

Should go back to strict whitelist, the good part about 6v6, not this convoluted mess.

I agree.
I was the first one to be excited for matchmaking and what it might bring in terms of the competitive scene but they managed to fuck that up royally to the point where it's unplayable even for competitive players.

They've made countless terrible balance changes over the years but a huge influx of them recently.

And to top it off the recent changes are all to try and compete with overwatch, not because they give half a fuck about what we think.

I say fuck them.
Let's play what works in competitive and if they ask we can tell them what changes they could make to weapons if they want to make them viable or at least not game breaking for competitive, because they have proved time and time again that they are clueless with balancing and even use "what weapon people use most/don't use" as a way to balance.

slin argues tf2 devs are better at balancing the game than anyone else, sure, just look at the last year of tf2 updates and unlock changes...

Please, for the love of god no one wants to see every soldier in the game running cow mangler 24/7

the cow mangler probably won't be run 24/7 because gunslinger is unbanned

he actually realized that he was wrong so he just said they are better at balancing weapons than he is, leaving it to the developers to realize what to do is wrong, but I think that directing all this attention to valve instead of the people who allowed the unlocks will create change, at the end if enough people raise their voices valve breaks under the pressure.

oh, you're right i completely forgot
Is this game slowly turning into overwatch?

consider this: how long did it take us to get matchmaking?
Valve won't fix these weapons, this season or next season if at all.

Valve doesn't give a shit if we unban weapons and TF2 will never be a major esport.

I just want to pug without dying of aids.

What more proof do you need that Valve has all the data they need, yet insist on doing things their own way? The very basics of 6's - being the core classes - Valve has decided to leave it as a "pick whatever you like, how many your team needs". They acknowledged there's a 6v6 format and a 9v9 format (you can see 9v9's going to become available in MM from the game files) yet they don't understand the gamemodes.

They've know for as long as comp TF2 exists the community thinks 1 demo and 1 medic are strong enough and yet they introduce MM with no class limits. And there you are thinking they'll hear complaints about weapons.

Besides that, I'm pretty sure they acknowledged how hard it is to introduce a new weapon to the game, despite the kids outcry for more. And yet - not sure if a moment of weakness or a hiatus of new content - they release them, some of which at their very core/context are unfixable. E.g.: The reserve shooter rewarding mini-crits for the enemy simply jumping was retarded, right? Wanting to deny what a scout is supposed to do... It was later changed, but how would you overhaul it? The weapon's idea is to deny jumpers. So unless you give it a serious cons on the side, it's unfixable. Valve has a lot on their hands with no idea of what to do with it.

So there we have it: a weapon system that, instead of being a list of situational, interesting and easy to understand choices, you have a f*ckfest of pros and cons, of which most new/casual players don't fathom or bother reading, and funny enough, even some veteran players may get caught out of the loop with the changes.

Following Slin's point on "let's use them all to show what's broken and why", I'd like to see some showmatches with no whitelist to showcase the banned weapons, followed perhaps with a post-game discussion to elaborate/explicit their flaws, rather than it being allowed in leagues. Especially if mid-season changes won't be allowed.

they shit on every competitive aspect ever created that made 6´s what it is today from rollouts to class compositions to rulesets, production crews, etc ... and what does the comp "community" do ?
they support them by doing shit like this
can we not turn 6´s into MM and get someone with balls to actually say NO to them instead of the usual ass kissing ..

Basically Slin is saying this is gunna be the time the Devs do stuff based on talks he's had with a nameless Valve dev who didn't promise anything but slin says if you read between the lines he thinks its likely they're going to do more updates.

Basically we're doing this for a chance that they maybe look at updating the items because they have updated other items recently. It doesn't seem like a big enough reason for me and I think it's really dumb to make all these concessions to Valve with 0 promises or commitment from them

stockholm syndrome

Comparing the decision to ban weapons in TF2 to Dota 2 is so absolutely ridiculously triggering. Vilifying people in this game for not wanting to play with weapons like the sandman, crit-a-cola, parachute, and laser rocket launcher implies no one has a good reason to avoid playing with them. Instead, there are copious reasons not to play with any of them, because they're added haphazardly to the game with no testing pre-release and rarely any updates/fixing post-release. When the Sandman was FIRST RELEASED, the entire community fucking hated it. It was stronger back then and would stun from any distance, instead of "slowing" your model (aka stunning lol) like it does today. They slowly changed it to what it is today, but the changes had no noticeable effect on the weapon's reputation, because any stun in this game is a bad idea and will never be endorsed. The only thing Valve can do to the sandman, other than changing its entire purpose, is removing it from the game. Anyone could delve into at least a dozen of the items in this game and parrot the same shit.

The standards to which this community is held, compared to Valve, is such a ridiculous, lop-sided juxtaposition. Apparently, Valve can throw items into this game as nonchalantly as a drunk person playing darts, but these items must be taken seriously and tested before banning them. ??? Do you earnestly believe that the community needs to demonstrate the imbalance of these weapons for Valve? They're game designers... All they have to do is READ THE DESCRIPTION that they themselves have added to each item to determine its place in the game. These items were added not erroneously, but without care for 6s. They added them thinking they'd be a fun addition to their chaotic, 24-man arena-style FPS game. That's it. Valve knows the majority of the weapons in the game could use changing, and the minority could use complete removal. But they've dug themselves a hole only THEY can dig themselves out of.

Another thing - comparing TF2 items to Dota or CS items, both of which cost money and have an effect on the economy of the team is stupid. The closest comparison one could make is to the CS revolver, because of its nearly non-existent cost; you could buy it every life without fail, because even the lowest loss bonus is more than the price of the weapon. What happened to that weapon? Banned from all competition the night of its release, then subsequently nerfed by Valve, because they actually care about the game and do not need a month's worth of testing to determine if a weapon is overpowered or not fun to play against.

I think because Valve have these questionable weapons in casual mode, even if they did want to ban them in the competitive mode, they'd feel like they couldn't just say ' here's competitive mode but you can't use these weapons we give you in other modes. '

i feel like i might get downfragged for this but honeslty after seeing this terrible whitelist of awful weapons i don't think should ever have a place in a competitive environment, I am not as disapointed about my team dying. I don't understand how the "pilars of the comunity that know whats best for us" could throw away a good whitelist that banned most all of the overpowered weapons, most of the weapons that take no skill to use and the ones that are not fun to play against. just because they think it will help the game grow. I'm sorry but i don't want to see the game grow if we are just going to see a stupidly chaotic game with a bunch of autistic weapons being used. I personally would rather have stock only than this new "competitive" 6v6 whitelist.

I interpreted the adjustment as a "here valve look we're compromising we're being less strict on meta that's what you want right please use the statistics please rebalance weapons please support the scene"

Now we wait another 3 years to see if that has any result... I doubt anybody endorsing this whitelist thought the actual whitelist was a 'great' idea. It's literally just that we need valve to give a shit, and we have to hand everything we can to them, even if it means appealing to their seemingly meta-less scene they want to balance around

@clckwrk I don't think that's a very fair assessment of the situation. I agree with you that the game was previously designed for casual gameplay but it's clear to me that they're coming around to the idea of competitive play ever since they developed 6v6 matchmaking and started balancing the game differently. The balance changes that were released in the last two major patches were largely beneficial for 6v6 gameplay and I think that we'll continue to see the game being iterated upon in the future.

If the last couple of patches were largely beneficial for 6s gameplay, this entire debacle wouldn't exist.

I think it'll take more than two patches to undo the 8 years of terrible balancing. I think we reached a good compromise by continuing to ban the most egregious weapons.

Again the big victory here is unifying the whitelist worldwide. Yes, we didn't ban every single weapon in the game and that's going to upset people, especially when you previously had over 50 banned items in ESEA. It'll take some getting used to by I think we should give it a chance.

With the rate at which they're moving, definitely. If they're going to continue nerfing/buffing items at random, be prepared to still have a dozen broken or stupid items in the game by i61. If that's the rate you accept for the game, then it will absolutely never move forward. The goal should have been to make enormous changes to items, complete revamps to make items fit comfortably into 6s gameplay, and buffs/nerfs to items currently relevant in 6s gameplay, when matchmaking went live. That's what beta should have allowed. If they were willing to make actual strides toward improvement instead of crawling, this debacle wouldn't exist.

Beggar's Bazooka...makes me wish I was playing soldier instead of medic this season. RIP me every time a beggar soldier gets the idea to bomb. *jump, load three rockets, point blank the medic*