the idea of a heavy being run on a midfight has been the 6s whitelist boogeyman for years and is the main motivation for a handful of weapon bans. with some of these weapons being allowed in rgl (steak sandvich, gru) and heavy to mid kind of never happening, it makes you wonder if this is just being slept on and not used when it should be, or if its actually just a bad strat?
heavy to mid
posted in
TF2 General Discussion
the idea of a heavy being run on a midfight has been the 6s whitelist boogeyman for years and is the main motivation for a handful of weapon bans. with some of these weapons being allowed in rgl (steak sandvich, gru) and heavy to mid kind of never happening, it makes you wonder if this is just being slept on and not used when it should be, or if its actually just a bad strat?
Main argument for him would be lasering soldiers out of the sky and controlling space by inching around the map with ur full ramp-up minigun.
I think it’s a gamble u surprise a team and deathball them. After that initial midfight I wouldn’t be surprised if players adapt to the slower mids tho.
Main argument for him would be lasering soldiers out of the sky and controlling space by inching around the map with ur full ramp-up minigun.
I think it’s a gamble u surprise a team and deathball them. After that initial midfight I wouldn’t be surprised if players adapt to the slower mids tho.
I think it’s a gamble u surprise a team and deathball them. After that initial midfight I wouldn’t be surprised if players adapt to the slower mids tho.
If teams are passive on snake water it can be pretty good bc it’s easy to hide around the corner and not get spammed (as shown in the 7 game above, muma ran it in adv playoffs and it worked too altho he also made spy to mid work so idk what you can take away from that)
If teams are passive on snake water it can be pretty good bc it’s easy to hide around the corner and not get spammed (as shown in the 7 game above, muma ran it in adv playoffs and it worked too altho he also made spy to mid work so idk what you can take away from that)
the trade off is one of your players has to play gay boring ass heavy
the trade off is one of your players has to play gay boring ass heavy
Heavy isn't as bad as people think in general, not just to mid. Heavy can be pretty powerful pushing out of last, pushing last, and for dryfights where you're expecting the defending team to bomb (such as drying into process 2nd).
Heavy isn't as bad as people think in general, not just to mid. Heavy can be pretty powerful pushing out of last, pushing last, and for dryfights where you're expecting the defending team to bomb (such as drying into process 2nd).
The issue with running a heavy off of last is that your combo ends up with a heal sponge that can be completely outrotated and your flank can just get completely crushed (as long as the heavy is being spammed well enough that he doesn't just get to walk in). Even if you win the mid, assuming the enemy team didn't just feed blindly into the heavy, how do you get him into second without just getting mega-flanked? I think it's nice as a once in a while surprise play thing but it's something that's hard to pull off consistently because it's extremely counterable if you know it's coming.
The one strat I do think was pretty effective with it was when the old french teams would run a heavy and sniper to gully mid through big door. That's mostly because any time you're trying to peek to spam the heavy, you have a chance of just insta-dying.
The issue with running a heavy off of last is that your combo ends up with a heal sponge that can be completely outrotated and your flank can just get completely crushed (as long as the heavy is being spammed well enough that he doesn't just get to walk in). Even if you win the mid, assuming the enemy team didn't just feed blindly into the heavy, how do you get him into second without just getting mega-flanked? I think it's nice as a once in a while surprise play thing but it's something that's hard to pull off consistently because it's extremely counterable if you know it's coming.
The one strat I do think was pretty effective with it was when the old french teams would run a heavy and sniper to gully mid through big door. That's mostly because any time you're trying to peek to spam the heavy, you have a chance of just insta-dying.
The one strat I do think was pretty effective with it was when the old french teams would run a heavy and sniper to gully mid through big door. That's mostly because any time you're trying to peek to spam the heavy, you have a chance of just insta-dying.
bearodactylIf teams are passive on snake water it can be pretty good bc it’s easy to hide around the corner and not get spammed (as shown in the 7 game above, muma ran it in adv playoffs and it worked too altho he also made spy to mid work so idk what you can take away from that)
Honestly even if the heavy gets spammed, you are forcing every projectile to shoot the heavy and that's just winning for the heavy's team.
I feel like in theory heavy is really strong but if you run heavy, people are going to complain.
[quote=bearodactyl]If teams are passive on snake water it can be pretty good bc it’s easy to hide around the corner and not get spammed (as shown in the 7 game above, muma ran it in adv playoffs and it worked too altho he also made spy to mid work so idk what you can take away from that)[/quote]
Honestly even if the heavy gets spammed, you are forcing every projectile to shoot the heavy and that's just winning for the heavy's team.
I feel like in theory heavy is really strong but if you run heavy, people are going to complain.
Honestly even if the heavy gets spammed, you are forcing every projectile to shoot the heavy and that's just winning for the heavy's team.
I feel like in theory heavy is really strong but if you run heavy, people are going to complain.
I tested heavy to mid multiple times when the buffalo steak sandvich was unbanned. I would say it was effect for about half the maps and in general for mid fights. For the maps it would be a problem with certain maps being too open. Examples of this are sunshine and process. There aren't easy spots for the medic to position himself around the heavy if a mid fight goes bad. Heavy can only do well if he isn't easily spotted on mid, meaning they can just slowly kill off people on mid 1 by 1 before they can get to a arrow tanked heavy, making the mid a L from the start. If you run it with two scouts and 1 soldier to mid, your only saving grace is if your heavy is fast enough to get into a good position and will get arrow tanked while going across mid and your remaining soldier makes enough space for your team before getting eviscerated. I guess for sunshine, a thing a heavy can do is go to cafe fast and hide there before the opposing team notices and peaks when both teams meet on mid but then again it has to be tested.
However on other maps it can work wonders, especially as a surprise tactic. On snakewater I like it because the heavy can fast rollout to catwalk and stay there if soldiers fast bomb, making it easier for your pocket scout to kill soldiers, and your medic can stay lower and bait if needed if the team rolls out through cat. If soldiers don't bomb then your heavy can just get arrow tanked if he crosses mid and plays as a second pocket scout. Obviously this can work only if your team knows how to play with this and has trust in the idea of you running heavy to mid in the first place. On koth maps it can also work. Heavy can work well as a soldier denier if he plays cliff on product, or stay in shack on clearcut until your demo does enough damage and gets arrow tanked and peaks into point. In general, heavy to mid can work but it's very situational and map based. It can also be predictable against certain teams and may work against you if they know how to properly focus call. For me I think it works best as a surprise maneuver or if 0 mid fights are working in your favor, but this is just my opinion in the end from my experience testing it.
I tested heavy to mid multiple times when the buffalo steak sandvich was unbanned. I would say it was effect for about half the maps and in general for mid fights. For the maps it would be a problem with certain maps being too open. Examples of this are sunshine and process. There aren't easy spots for the medic to position himself around the heavy if a mid fight goes bad. Heavy can only do well if he isn't easily spotted on mid, meaning they can just slowly kill off people on mid 1 by 1 before they can get to a arrow tanked heavy, making the mid a L from the start. If you run it with two scouts and 1 soldier to mid, your only saving grace is if your heavy is fast enough to get into a good position and will get arrow tanked while going across mid and your remaining soldier makes enough space for your team before getting eviscerated. I guess for sunshine, a thing a heavy can do is go to cafe fast and hide there before the opposing team notices and peaks when both teams meet on mid but then again it has to be tested.
However on other maps it can work wonders, especially as a surprise tactic. On snakewater I like it because the heavy can fast rollout to catwalk and stay there if soldiers fast bomb, making it easier for your pocket scout to kill soldiers, and your medic can stay lower and bait if needed if the team rolls out through cat. If soldiers don't bomb then your heavy can just get arrow tanked if he crosses mid and plays as a second pocket scout. Obviously this can work only if your team knows how to play with this and has trust in the idea of you running heavy to mid in the first place. On koth maps it can also work. Heavy can work well as a soldier denier if he plays cliff on product, or stay in shack on clearcut until your demo does enough damage and gets arrow tanked and peaks into point. In general, heavy to mid can work but it's very situational and map based. It can also be predictable against certain teams and may work against you if they know how to properly focus call. For me I think it works best as a surprise maneuver or if 0 mid fights are working in your favor, but this is just my opinion in the end from my experience testing it.
However on other maps it can work wonders, especially as a surprise tactic. On snakewater I like it because the heavy can fast rollout to catwalk and stay there if soldiers fast bomb, making it easier for your pocket scout to kill soldiers, and your medic can stay lower and bait if needed if the team rolls out through cat. If soldiers don't bomb then your heavy can just get arrow tanked if he crosses mid and plays as a second pocket scout. Obviously this can work only if your team knows how to play with this and has trust in the idea of you running heavy to mid in the first place. On koth maps it can also work. Heavy can work well as a soldier denier if he plays cliff on product, or stay in shack on clearcut until your demo does enough damage and gets arrow tanked and peaks into point. In general, heavy to mid can work but it's very situational and map based. It can also be predictable against certain teams and may work against you if they know how to properly focus call. For me I think it works best as a surprise maneuver or if 0 mid fights are working in your favor, but this is just my opinion in the end from my experience testing it.
idk what it's gonna take for you people to understand that ur not some meta messiah or innovative genius for thinking of shit involving abuse of unlocks and classes. you really think ur the first? like some gremlin in 2014 or earlier wasnt already sitting in a mumble hashing this theory out?
the community has long realized dealing with tons of powerful combos and tactics enabled by certain unlocks and classes isn't fun. it never once mattered how viable it was, and ur not a clever or funny pioneer for abusing any of it
idk what it's gonna take for you people to understand that ur not some meta messiah or innovative genius for thinking of shit involving abuse of unlocks and classes. you really think ur the first? like some gremlin in 2014 or earlier wasnt already sitting in a mumble hashing this theory out?
the community has long realized dealing with tons of powerful combos and tactics enabled by certain unlocks and classes [i]isn't fun[/i]. it never once mattered how viable it was, and ur not a clever or funny pioneer for abusing any of it
the community has long realized dealing with tons of powerful combos and tactics enabled by certain unlocks and classes [i]isn't fun[/i]. it never once mattered how viable it was, and ur not a clever or funny pioneer for abusing any of it
Brimstoneidk what it's gonna take for you people to understand that ur not some meta messiah or innovative genius for thinking of shit involving abuse of unlocks and classes. you really think ur the first? like some gremlin in 2014 or earlier wasnt already sitting in a mumble hashing this theory out?
the community has long realized dealing with tons of powerful combos and tactics enabled by certain unlocks and classes isn't fun. it never once mattered how viable it was, and ur not a clever or funny pioneer for abusing any of it
Did I scare you?
[quote=Brimstone]idk what it's gonna take for you people to understand that ur not some meta messiah or innovative genius for thinking of shit involving abuse of unlocks and classes. you really think ur the first? like some gremlin in 2014 or earlier wasnt already sitting in a mumble hashing this theory out?
the community has long realized dealing with tons of powerful combos and tactics enabled by certain unlocks and classes [i]isn't fun[/i]. it never once mattered how viable it was, and ur not a clever or funny pioneer for abusing any of it[/quote]
BOO https://imgur.com/SGrc5Ey
Did I scare you?
the community has long realized dealing with tons of powerful combos and tactics enabled by certain unlocks and classes [i]isn't fun[/i]. it never once mattered how viable it was, and ur not a clever or funny pioneer for abusing any of it[/quote]
BOO https://imgur.com/SGrc5Ey
Did I scare you?
People will complain about heavy to mid until they learn to play around it. Something like that is counterable with focus fire and just not bombing the heavy. Low div players bomb straight at a heavy on last even after 80 years though so I do think it's mostly a noob stomp. I will say that it has worked at major international LANs with Silentes on Snake, and Lowpander running it and inevitably holding second.
People will complain about heavy to mid until they learn to play around it. Something like that is counterable with focus fire and just not bombing the heavy. Low div players bomb straight at a heavy on last even after 80 years though so I do think it's mostly a noob stomp. I will say that it has worked at major international LANs with Silentes on Snake, and Lowpander running it and inevitably holding second.
Brimstone
i think heavy to mid sucks ass to play against and is annoying and boring BUT i dont think it really increases your chance of winning the mid and isnt fun to play either
may main motivation for asking is actually the disciplinary action which i think could be a really cool unlock for soldiers to enable more aggression and creative bombs but its just banned because of this stupid heavy to mid boogeyman
[quote=Brimstone][/quote]
i think heavy to mid sucks ass to play against and is annoying and boring BUT i dont think it really increases your chance of winning the mid and isnt fun to play either
may main motivation for asking is actually the disciplinary action which i think could be a really cool unlock for soldiers to enable more aggression and creative bombs but its just banned because of this stupid heavy to mid boogeyman
i think heavy to mid sucks ass to play against and is annoying and boring BUT i dont think it really increases your chance of winning the mid and isnt fun to play either
may main motivation for asking is actually the disciplinary action which i think could be a really cool unlock for soldiers to enable more aggression and creative bombs but its just banned because of this stupid heavy to mid boogeyman
I remember a certain eu team did this strat 6 - 8 years ago; name's on the tip of my tongue
I remember a certain eu team did this strat 6 - 8 years ago; name's on the tip of my tongue
whip would be so ass to have unbanned even if heavy didnt exist
whip would be so ass to have unbanned even if heavy didnt exist
tfw u whip ur soldier before he bombs so he can go super fast but then their medic gets whipped so he can kite super fast!!!
epic?
tfw u whip ur soldier before he bombs so he can go super fast but then their medic gets whipped so he can kite super fast!!!
epic?
epic?
I think whip bombs could be insane, it's sort of hard to tell because historically highlander soldiers are not exactly jump savants and you're playing into the iron wall (pyro/heavy/scout/engineer, pyro here being the worst). But it wouldn't surprise me if invite soldiers make it totally busted. The walk speed increase is like 40% which is actually pretty nuts but I'm not sure how that translates into rj speed, maybe the jump nerds know.
I think whip bombs could be insane, it's sort of hard to tell because historically highlander soldiers are not exactly jump savants and you're playing into the iron wall (pyro/heavy/scout/engineer, pyro here being the worst). But it wouldn't surprise me if invite soldiers make it totally busted. The walk speed increase is like 40% which is actually pretty nuts but I'm not sure how that translates into rj speed, maybe the jump nerds know.
springrollsI think whip bombs could be insane, it's sort of hard to tell because historically highlander soldiers are not exactly jump savants and you're playing into the iron wall (pyro/heavy/scout/engineer, pyro here being the worst). But it wouldn't surprise me if invite soldiers make it totally busted. The walk speed increase is like 40% which is actually pretty nuts but I'm not sure how that translates into rj speed, maybe the jump nerds know.
whipping your scout right before taking a solo uber and sending two mach 5 torpedos to the medic
[quote=springrolls]I think whip bombs could be insane, it's sort of hard to tell because historically highlander soldiers are not exactly jump savants and you're playing into the iron wall (pyro/heavy/scout/engineer, pyro here being the worst). But it wouldn't surprise me if invite soldiers make it totally busted. The walk speed increase is like 40% which is actually pretty nuts but I'm not sure how that translates into rj speed, maybe the jump nerds know.[/quote]
whipping your scout right before taking a solo uber and sending two mach 5 torpedos to the medic
whipping your scout right before taking a solo uber and sending two mach 5 torpedos to the medic
loch and load might just insta gib him unless hes arrow tanked
loch and load might just insta gib him unless hes arrow tanked
The thing about whip that concerns me is how fast demo would get to mid, not even running heavy. I don't want mid to boil down to demoman MGE
The thing about whip that concerns me is how fast demo would get to mid, not even running heavy. I don't want mid to boil down to demoman MGE
springrolls
Hot take, whipping a sniper is absolutely broken. He moves nearly as fast as scout when whipped.
[quote=springrolls][/quote]
Hot take, whipping a sniper is absolutely broken. He moves nearly as fast as scout when whipped.
Hot take, whipping a sniper is absolutely broken. He moves nearly as fast as scout when whipped.
springrolls
One applicable area for whip bombs would be jumping through small doorways. Currently, one of the areas where soldier isn't very good is getting through small doors, since you have to awkwardly waddle through the door and then jump. If the whip were unbanned, soldiers could speed-waddle and bomb from doors that they would normally be completely locked out of.
[quote=springrolls][/quote]One applicable area for whip bombs would be jumping through small doorways. Currently, one of the areas where soldier isn't very good is getting through small doors, since you have to awkwardly waddle through the door and then jump. If the whip were unbanned, soldiers could speed-waddle and bomb from doors that they would normally be completely locked out of.
Back in 2013 (i think) there was a cup in EU with no unlock bans. On Gullywash Broder ran Jukebox on sniper, and Zebbosai on heavy to mid, and it was effective. They were both in big door. Jukebox was clicking every head, while Zebbosai protected Jukebox from bombs. I think this might be the most effective way to play heavy to mid.
TLDR: Heavy protect GOAT sniper
Back in 2013 (i think) there was a cup in EU with no unlock bans. On Gullywash Broder ran Jukebox on sniper, and Zebbosai on heavy to mid, and it was effective. They were both in big door. Jukebox was clicking every head, while Zebbosai protected Jukebox from bombs. I think this might be the most effective way to play heavy to mid.
TLDR: Heavy protect GOAT sniper
TLDR: Heavy protect GOAT sniper
rmrfspringrollsHot take, whipping a sniper is absolutely broken. He moves nearly as fast as scout when whipped.
I don't really see it tbh, sniper is just going to hold an angle for a few seconds looking for something and then hold another angle if he can't get a pick, not much mobility needed. Unless you mean like during transitions or rolling out, but then your soldier is too busy whipping a sniper and can't really do any aggressive plays.
[quote=rmrf][quote=springrolls][/quote]
Hot take, whipping a sniper is absolutely broken. He moves nearly as fast as scout when whipped.[/quote]
I don't really see it tbh, sniper is just going to hold an angle for a few seconds looking for something and then hold another angle if he can't get a pick, not much mobility needed. Unless you mean like during transitions or rolling out, but then your soldier is too busy whipping a sniper and can't really do any aggressive plays.
Hot take, whipping a sniper is absolutely broken. He moves nearly as fast as scout when whipped.[/quote]
I don't really see it tbh, sniper is just going to hold an angle for a few seconds looking for something and then hold another angle if he can't get a pick, not much mobility needed. Unless you mean like during transitions or rolling out, but then your soldier is too busy whipping a sniper and can't really do any aggressive plays.
Please
sign in through STEAM
to post a comment.