CS has plenty of pub maps/modes and the community still had a good comp scene. I don't think it's a real barrier because when most people pub the payload objective is just a side thing (or at least in most pubs I play in). Only 2-3 people out of 12 might do it unless it's conveniently close.

Implement something like this?

This thread again.

You can already move that fast as soldier, that's just lowering the skill ceiling. The spy play is gimmicky at best and adds nothing except making pocketing harder. This would slow down games instead of speeding them up because you'd need to run perma-heavy to stop them from raping your medic.

I haven't seen it mentioned here, but there's a bigger reason beyond just "pub and comp play aren't the same": most people don't want the 6v6 format. It's not just that they don't play it, they have no interest in it. A lot of pub players only play pyro, spy, engineer, because they enjoy it, but you just can't do that in the 6v6 format. It's not that they don't understand it, they just don't want to take part.

tl;dr: As far as gameplay goes, TF2 is as comp-centric as it can get. The issue is a lack of official support from Valve for 6v6 gameplay.

Well come to think of it, yes, cs has game modes that aren't in the competitive rotation too, my post was dumb and i have turbodowns

i never had a major interest in 6v6 because i cant really play my favorite class in it all the time :x

Sure you can, you just won't be all that effective.

Start a league for pubbers and let them play whatever classes they want instead of the the generic 2 scout 2 soldier 1 demo 1 med class line up (2 class limit 1 heavy 1 engy 1 med 1 demo)

and let them eventually figure out for themselves that 2 scout 2 soldier 1 demo 1 med works best instead of forcing it down their throat.

This is probably the best suggestion in the thread. The only problem is that someone who has figured out why certain classes are the best for a certain situation won't want to pug with people who insist on perma-spy. This creates a split community and limits the people playing alternative classes from getting better because no one good will want to play against them.

People can already play whatever class they want in leagues, nobody is forcing anything down anyone's throat. It's just that a team consisting of 2 scouts, 2 soldiers 1 demo and 1 medic is generally the most effective team composition. What you're suggesting is like starting a tf2 special olympics for people who don't know how to play the game.

Good point, although it will great another genre of competitive tf2 play can we really regard that as a bad thing? the people who don't want to scrim generic classes will scrim each other and generic will scrim generic. Either way there is more people playing tf2 competitively.

It's a great idea but I think that this wouldn't be the most effective team composition at low levels. When scouts can't aim, pyros are effective; when soldiers/demos can't jump, heavies are effective.

The cookie-cutter (and in many ways the competitive game) don't actually emerge until players have reliable dm, which many of these players won't.

Yes that is exactly what I am suggesting.

have you seen those broder vs hrg showmatches

they are pretty inspirational

MIGHT AS WELL ADD DUSTBOWL BACK INTO COMP BECAUSE SO MANY PUBBERS PLAY IT

RIGHT

I don't think you understand how retarded your suggestion is. You're saying you want to create a league with our same exact same rules/restrictions except encourage people to play with a less effective team composition. It's like you want people to purposely handicap themselves to make it hard for them to win. This is not competitive, it's a joke. I get that you're thinking of ways to make it easier for people to play 6s but this is not the way to do it. People need to learn how to play the game properly. Everything has a learning curve and if people aren't dedicated enough to learn how to play the game then they should just stick with pubs. If people want to play a class that isn't scout, soldier, demo or medic then highlander is for them.

People NEED to learn, people don't NEED to do anything, if they are playing comp 6v6 and playing in any which way they wan't they will eventually gain interest to deepen their learning and see how it is properly played. that's all I'm saying.

And no one is gonna be drawn into 6's with your "You need to learn and need to be dedicated and practice 6 hrs a day" the learning and dedication will come after they get a taste of 6v6 play.

To sum it up for you hooli in case you didn't understand: Get new people to play a 6v6 format by any means necessary

The biggest appeal to 6s for me is that I DONT have to fight perma pyros heavies engies and spies.

If someone was actually interested in playing with 2 pyros or whatever now there's nothing stopping them. They're just going to get annihilated by anyone who knows what they're doing. So I guess I don't understand what the point of creating another league that would also allow it would accomplish; accept possibly fracturing the community more.

Expecting a million down votes, but still...

The competitive game needs to be less alienated from the public game. We have a huge public scene, the competitive TF2 player base is probably less than 1% of it. We aren't getting gamers from other games to quit their competitive games and take up TF2. The pool of potential players and spectators that a 5 year old game (?) has to take from is going to be the public community, which is still MASSIVE.

No other successful eSport title has their competitive game so different from their public game, in fact, some of them are literally identical, and only the level of team play itself differs. The game titles that are a custom mod, pro mode etc, that do make it as a pro eSport title get only a short period of time as a pro eSport title then they die off. Some new releases do get an initial 'hype' period where teams move over to it, expecting it to be the next 'big thing' but those too often die out after a couple of tournaments, and TF2 can't have that as its already an old game.

The problem we have, is that we enjoy a particular style of TF2 to the point where it's almost a completely different game. We play with scouts, soldiers, demos and a medic. We rarely use other classes where as spies, heavies, engineers all feature heavily on pubs. We restrict our game to a handful of unlocks, while the public community have hundreds of weapons to play around with. We play 5CP maps while the public community clearly prefer A/D and Payload maps.

As shit as it sounds, TF2 would probably have more luck as an eSports title if we were playing payload 6v6, with no unlock restrictions, and maybe class limit 1 (to promote more diversity in classes). The game wouldn't be half as fun to play, or watch (from a competitive TF2 players perspective) but the public community would enjoy it a lot more than watching what we play now, and there are a lot more of them than us.

Highlander is great and also much more popular than 6v6 is with barely any coverage and publicity, but 9vs9 isn't really possible for LAN events, or as a professional eSports. It is however highly preferred by the public community, as they can come and watch their favorite class, and everyone is represented in a match.

I think we would need to come up with some sort of 'hybrid' competitive game that still keeps the speed and skill of the existing competitive TF2, but gives public players something they can relate to in the game they play. Maybe a 6vs6 CL1 Payload comp with minimal unlock restrictions, but to most of the competitive community, that simply sounds awful.

So without changing the actual game, the only thing we can really do is try to heavily promote what we have, and hope it sticks with some people and grows over time, but I can't see that happening 5 years (?) into a game's existence, or at least not to a point where it will make it as a huge competitive title. The game is growing, but at this rate, we would need 10+ years to get to the level of publicity where we could expect tournaments of $35,000 or more to feature in our scene.

we should stop derailing this thread

The primary problem with competitive TF2 is that Valve refuses to recognize it. This has already been somewhat agreed on. The question is alterations to the actual game that would be better for competitive play.

Oh also, payload works as a public map, because people naturally play the objective. The cart heals you, so if you want more health, you can go push the cart. Also with some maps if you want to go onto the next 'level' you need to push the cart to the end.

It's the same as how Counter-Strike's public game plays a lot like the competitive game.
People want to win the round, so they can get more money, so they can get bigger guns, so they can kill more people. So they plant the bomb, or diffuse the bomb to get more money for the next round.

There's no motivation for public players to capture the points on a 5CP map, so they simply don't unless they happen to kill all of the players, pushed forward to the next choke point, and captured a point on the way because it was 'there'.

I wonder if we gave payload a huge chance, if we would actual ever be able to enjoy it? Probably not, but just wondering!

Comp tf2 is already one of the most unique and interesting competitive formats that exists in competitive gaming. Current eSports have only the two extremes of 1v1 (SC2, Quake) and team games (CS:GO, MOBAs); while in tf2, the individual skill ceiling is just as high as team skill. In traditional sports, you have your 1v1 sports like tennis and your team sports like volleyball. But the biggest sports (soccer, hockey, baseball, football) are those that not only focus on team dynamics but also allow for the rise of star players. This is something that is currently missing from the current more popular eSports. Can you pick a single "best player" in LoL or Dota2 that is as dominating as b4nny?

Because of tf2 ability to promote star players while also maintaining the team dynamic, I think the game has hugely untapped potential. The problem is that very few people know comp tf2 exists. Almost 100% of starcraft players know about professional players, you'd probably find similar numbers for LoL or Dota players. In contrast, for tf2 knowledge of competitive play is likely under 1% of the total player-base.

TF.tv is already a great start for spreading awareness as the central hub for the tf2 competitive scene. We should try to solve the other issues that plague bringing the game to masses. For instance, game instability is a huge problem as players seem to be constantly crashing; this is not an issue in other games. Or server/stv reliability, jumping in and spectating isn't a problem with Dota or LoL. I think once we solve the content delivery and awareness problems, you'll really start to see that viewer-base grow.

I wouldn't blame the developer for our game not becoming a major player in eSports. They did make a large number of gestures to promote the competitive game early in the days of TF2. We had the Beta scheme, they implemented tournament mode, they balanced a number of the early unlocks and game settings after the competitive community highlighted issues. They were at one point working with us, but we pretty much rejected their efforts and decided to do our own thing with the game.

Even now, Valve make their money from purchases in the mannco store, and our competitive game itself doesn't actually use any of that stuff. A public player can't see Ruwin use some new scout unlock and then go buy it because 'he wants to play like him' because we only use default stuff. League of legends, a public player stumbles across their pro streams, see's xPeke destroy someone with Katarina in mid lane, and then they go buy the champ. We don't make Valve much money at all, so we can't expect them to throw time and money at our scene as they would get such a small return for their investment (which is what it ultimately comes down to with any game developer). We can't blame them for that, we simply need to show them how we can make money for them for them to want to invest something in our scene.

My team's server had that for a scrim once because someone tried to play surf maps on it before the game. That first midfight was hilarious.

Any game that needs to be altered to be "playable" fails as a competitive game. Smash bros is another example of this. While there is more DM skill in 6s, it lacks the overall appeal TF2 has because it takes away so much that makes the game fun (class limits, unlock bans, map type bans).

To be honest, Highlander is and has been the biggest shot at making TF2 big, as much as a lot of people don't like to hear it. HL takes all the things that make TF2 fun, and makes it competitive. As much as I like watching 6s, I'll always enjoy HL more in both observing and playing because it uses far more aspects of the game. 6s, right now, is the TF2 equivalent to No Items, Fox Only, Final Destination in Smash Bros. It may be more competitive, but its more limited, and brings in far less people.

Anyway, this is all fairly offtopic from the OP but w/e.

Do basically what they did with CS:GO. That's pretty much it.

i don't think you know much about smash bros